Shooting Indian Imports

[Va.Manuf.06]

Sorry to continue in this vein, but look at the breeching of that gun in the post referenced by Russ T Frizzen, no one in the history firearms breeches a barrel like that other than the current Indian makers. It is definitely Indian. Let's see some pics of the Italian barrel that burst - it can happen, I have no doubt, but I am willing to bet that it didn't happen with a blank load.

 

[Parzifal]

The same thread that talks so fairly about the indian gun also talks about the italian thing, happened at a reinactment with a blank load.

These guns are breeched as the origionals. its the italian ones that are the exception I believe, The muskets I and many other forum members own are fine shooting guns.

I wish I could say the same of my italian thing.
I would buy another Loyalist gun without worry , but piedersoli would have to work very hard to get another penny from this shooter.

ANYHOW lets return to talking about the shooting characteristics of these worthy arms. :wink:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Well, I tried to find the post mentioned by Russ T Frizzen ("page 11 in this forum and scroll down to the heading "Burst musket barrel question") but it appears to have been removed, therefore I can't cut and paste the picture of the breech here, but I can describe it. The Indian guns have a breechplug made similar to a capped bolt with the tang being an extension of the cap - it seems they use the cap to close the breech, breeching stops when the cap makes contact with the end of the barrel. Now, I have examined literally hundreds of original guns and have never seen one that was breeched in that fashion nor have I ever seen a new made gun from the modern era breeched in this fashion until the Indian products showed up. There is an obvious seam all the way around the breech of the gun that is very obvious in the photographs of these guns. The Italians use the standard breeching method where the plug threads into the breech and only the shoulder of the tang butts up against the barrel. That is the norm. Is it possible that you have never looked at an original gun? Sorry, it is obvious that we are never going to agree on this so I will stop my participation in this thread, I am doing no good. :surrender:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Robert, it may look no worse, but I'll wager it looks different. The Indian gun obviously let go along a seam. It looks to have just opened up and released the pressure. Which explains why the breech plug is still more or less in position. The Pedersoli barrel wouldn't have a seam so it must have been more like a grenade exploding when it blew. Much more violent and dangerous!

 

[chuckpa]

I was hoping that someone out there had some experience firing some of the flint pistols. I bought there 1756 sea service model and loaded it with 40grns of FFG goex. I also used some epoxy to put a front sight on. The target I used was a IPSIC target that I added to cross straps with duct tape. I found that I could keep the rounds in the kill zone at 20 feet. I was just getting ready to experiment with moving back a few feet at a time when I had to move. I haven't tried shot out of this gun yet.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

One thing to try that will improve ignition is to run your vent pick into the vent after you've loaded the pistol. This often will cure ignition problems. Instead of spitlube, try a heavier lube--maybe a beeswax and tallow lube or even just some olive oil. Load powder, card wad then patched ball. 30 to 40 grains of powder should be enough in a 20 bore.

 

[sharps54]

Thanks for the tips! I actually put a pipe cleaner in the vent holes when I load the first time (the only time it went off right away) but forgot after that, we did "pick" the vent after loading though. I brainfarted on bringing patch lube and spit was on hand...
Instead of modifying the springs, screwing them up and being stuck with a wall hanger I decided to sell the pistol. I had too many irons in the fire at once and needed to free up some money to buy a boy's rifle for my 12 year old and the "pirate pistol" pulled the short straw. I will file your comments away so I can put them to good use went I pick up another smooth bore pistol.

 

[bingo1952]

I got the forge up and running. It ain't a thing of beauty but is does work and as my dear departed Granddad use to say, "Pretty is as pretty does". I put the frizzen in a container approximately 3" square by 3" deep and covered with Kasenit and fired it until the Kasenit went molten and then held it for about 30 minutes. I had turned a brass bushing for the frizzen screw to take up some slop in the hole and forgot to remove it before heating. The metal around the screw hole including the two legs had the nicest brass plating on them when it came out of the quench. It took about 15 minutes with a wire wheel on a Dremel to get the brass off the frizzen. The way it reacted I would guess Kasenit would make a decent brazing flux. :haha: The frizzen came out wonderfully hard and so far shows no sign of the flint going through the case and it sparks much better than when I first got the gun. Ignition is at least half again as quick as before. I am now dialing in the front sight to bring it on target and it is 4"low and 3" right but I hope to get it finalized this weekend.
Keep Shooting. :thumbsup:

 

[chuckpa]

I plan to shoot the Cookson tomorrow, I think I have the sights ready to go. I will look forward to your range report.

 

[Brewer]

Just curious - why didn't you send the frizzen back to Pete Plunkett at MVTC? He'll re-harden the frizzen for free, no matter how many times you need it. He is a very honest, stand-up guy who supports his wares quite well.

 

[bingo1952]

I wanted to do it myself since I have done frizzens this way for years and I get a case that is deep enough that it won't wear through in the foreseeable future and I have it done now and don't have to wait on shippers. Yes I know he will re-harden for free but I believe (don't know for sure) he is probably torch hardening with Kasenit or pack hardening and both processes will only give you .003-.004 thousandths. You can get deeper with pack hardening if you let it soak for hours and hours but the way I do it I can get the same results in a half hour.

 

[chuckpa]

I was able to get out on the range yesterday and after I got the sight picture set up I shot a cloverleaf with the cookson at 25yds. That gun can shoot. I used the load I described earlier in the thread.

 

[colmoultrie]

Of course that Cookson is so long that if your feet are at 25 yds., the muzzle is at 10 yds! :grin:

That's really nice shooting, at least by my standards. Of course now someone will chime in and say that the Indian guns can't shoot - a real group with a smoothbore is a cloverleaf @ 200 yds.! :surrender:

Congratulations! I want you with me and loading one of these times we try that Wilson trade gun I traded/stole from you. I have to take that out again next time I get a chance to go, but that Bucks County rifle keeps calling to me, and it always sneaks into my trunk.

 

[chuckpa]

For the time being I have smoothboreitus, it started with the two North Star West smoothbores. When I saw that long barreled Cookson it seemed to be such a different looking gun that I had to try it. I am surprised by the way it balances for me. A local fellow who shoots smoothbores told me to keep my head in the same place on the stock. I do this by holding my head as far back on the stock as I can for each shot. I hope to be able to use this gun for all my hunting this year.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Another way to shoot the gun is to NOT put your head or cheek against the stock at all, but rather hold your head upright, and mount the gun to your shoulder below. You maintain a position of uniformity by having the muzzle of the barrel appear in the same position of your perifpheral vision each time you shoot.

This technique has been used by game bird shooters for years, especially useful to people who have lost or damaged their dominant eye, and have to use the non-dominant. Instead of learning how to position their face along side the stock all over again, they use this shooting style to still hit clay targets and live birds.

Remember, you POINT a shotgun or fowler, you don't Aim it like a rifle.( unless you are shooting PRB.)

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I would not recommended that as a consistent way to shoot. We even shoot the skeet field from the hip for fun but would never consider that method when something is at stake, be it shooting game or for a title. The more anchor you can make between the body and the gun to become one and keep the eye (rear sight) at the same place and near the sight plane the better.
Adjusting the stock is a much better alternative than using an inconsistent form or putting the body in a weird contortion.

 

[paulvallandigham]

ACtually, the way most shooters crawl up a stock is the 'Weird " postion. The one I describe is a shotgun variation of the Turret handgun position, where you for am isoceles triangle with your shoulders and arms on the gun. I have seen people shooting shotgun slugs from short barrel police guns with the stock butt against their breast bones, the heel of the stock below their neck, and the gun " aimed " with the entire upper body, just like the cannon on a Tank turret( hence the name of the stance).

Everyone's Experience differs. I never was comfortable with the Turret stance, because I had spent years perfecting the Weaver stance with handguns. I can use the Turret Stance when shooting a handgun, but I prefer the Weaver.

I know an instructor and expert shooter, who has a school that teaches the shoulder only mount technique to his students, and they regularly leave at the end of a week breaking moore skeet, trap, and sporting clays targets then they did before they took his courses. I don't shoot my shotgun his way, because I never took his course. I have changed my stance shooting shotguns over the years as I had guns fitted to me, and learned what I needed to be doing to break more targets, and take down birds more often than not. I still hunt doves, just to keep me humble, tho'. They are the only birds that can " stop on a dime, and give you back change", and you just are not going to hit every dove you fire at. :thumbsup:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I suppose if someone could not hit a bull in the rump with a bass fiddle they might hit more clays but it's not a consistant form and I will not teach it to my students for hunting or target situations. Matter of fact, I dont know any instructors who actually know their stuff who would even consider it. It is OK for combat situations while looking thru ghost rings high above the barrel plane.

 

[chuckpa]

The way the stock is shaped it seems as if it was made to be fired with my head as far back on the stock as I can get it. I know that felt recoil is subjective but with my head held back as far as possible it don't feel the recoil the same way as when I have my head farther down on the stock.Actually with my head back like that I don't feel any recoil.

 

[chuckpa]

I got out on the range and did some more shooting with the Cookson. I'm starting to get some consistent groups now that I'm keeping my head in the same position. I am amazed at how that gun balances. Has anybody got any other range reports?