Rice RRB 62-125 Goex-fiber wad

[dbutch]

WindWalker..Thank you for the info shared...I have my eye on a couple of 20 SB'S around 6 to 6.5 lbs.Looking for a "grouse getter" So many nice kits to choose from! One with interchangeable barrels would fit the bill.
What weight load(shot or rb ) are you pushing through your barrels?The .610 RB I shoot weighs 330 gr. on an old Lyman scale.
Thanks in advance...Dan

 

[necchi]

125gr of 3F....YOWSA!!! Hey, but you can't argue with that 100 yard group!

Man you said it! I've never been a proponant of heavy or max loads, but Ya can't argue with that target, and at 6' and 250 I don't think I wanna argue with makemsmoke either!
You must have incredible control over that gun sir, those loads and that target are defenatly ahead of the curve :bow:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dan: I am not impressed with those cushion wads you picture. The text explaining how you made them explains why they are not in better condition after being shot. It also explains why you didn't get better result shooting FFg powder.

May I suggest you try using the 1/8" thick, Vegetable Fiber wads( TOTW) instead of the lighter cushion wads? I found that they seal the bore much better, and cause the powder to burn more completely. I did not find any unburned FFg powder nor any excessive powder residue in my 20ga. SB. In fact, I was surprised that I could not feel any difference in the powder residue in the barrel when cleaning between shots, between the FFg and FFFg powder loads. I was shooting 75 grains of FFg behind a .600 PRB.

May I also suggest that you grease the bore after seating the PRB? I found the extra grease helps improve velocity, and I could reduce the powder charge accordingly. I also found that the use of the greased bore lowers the SDV noticeably, and improved my group size accordingly.

My Table on the Davenport formula tells me that your 32 inch barrel can handle 118.05 Grains of powder efficiently. You are right over that amount.

I would recommend you reduce the charge to 100 grains as a max, and use that OP wad I have suggested, and a greased bore( it protects the bore from rust during the hunt, too) to get the same or better sized groups with less stress being placed on the barrel. That red color in the pan is Trying to TELL YOU SOMETHING.

If you were shooting a 44 inch bore in that rifle, the load could be even larger than what you have reported here, but I still would not recommend it. Again, That RED COLOR in the pan is Trying To TELL YOU SOMETHING.

Remember that there are fundamental principles of Aerodynamics that say, in brief, that "the faster you push something into the air, the faster it SLOWS DOWN!" While the weight of a .62 caliber RB contributes to it having a higher Ballistic's coefficient, It still is a poor projectile, AERODYMAMICALLY SPEAKING.( BC=.084)

What you do have shooting any .62 caliber RB, either in a SM or a rifle, is a FREIGHT CAR, that does not have to be moving very fast to go completely through most animals you might shoot on the N. American Continent.

There is an " Old Rule of Thumb" that you can use the caliber of your RB to determine the percentage of velocity retained at 100 yds, based on Muzzle Velocity. So, If your load is producing 1600 fps at the muzzle, the retained velocity at 100 yds. will be 992 Fps. If that ball is "ONLY" going 1200 fps at the muzzle, its retained velocity is 744 fps. That is more than enough to drive that ball completely through any deer.

That sounds terrible for any rifle shooting bullets, but Not so with a soft lead RB. And, you still start out with a Primary Wound channel that is at least .62 caliber: that lets a lot of blood out, and a lot of air in.

Merry Christmas

 

[zrifleman]

3 FG is too fast---burns with a bang, not a push. As is already mentioned it burns thru patches. I am not saying it won't work--it's just not the optimum powder. In this day and age there is a tendency to try and "magnumize" your BP loads whether it is ML or BPCR. Same principles apply today that did 150 yrs ago. If accuracy deteriorates with coarse powder it could be due to an ignition problem in the breech. Changing loading technique or polishing the inside of the breech could correct that. Try using a non-vented nipple or a new nipple with a smaller flash hole. My point is acuracy is not so much about faster burning powder or more of it than better ignition.

 

[dbutch]

Neechi..the trick to shooting these loads is not to flinch. Each time the gun goes off it's a surprise.I use a more than slow steady trigger pressure!It would be interesting to measure the muzzle rise on this load.Next time I'm at the range I'll have someone try and measure it.

I think once you get over the idea of the size of this load you could shoot it as good or better.The mind is a funny thing to overcome.

I shot with 3 layers on Wed. The wind was brutal.
looking forward to testing these loads in the spring with less outerwear.

 

[dbutch]

ZMan..Thank you for your reply..I need all the help I can get...the best part of this forum is you get to hear about so many different experiences. Thank for your opinion....Dan

 

[roundball]

3 FG is too fast

Still have no idea what that means.

I stsrted out following the old hand-me-down mantra of only use 2F in anything larger than a .45/.50cal...but after experimenting, I settled on using Goex 3F in everything years ago... .40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62cal rifles and .28 & .20ga smoothbore Flintlocks...its fast, clean, and accurate...my shot loads even pattern better with 3F than 2F.

Wads or even just a spare lubed patch over powder as a firwall take care of any worries about patch problems.

I use the 'rule of thumb' to reduce 2F load data by 10-15% when substituting 3F so there's no pressure issues to worry about.

In still trying to burn up a few remaining cans of Goex 2F from a case I bought 10 years ago, I used 100grns 2F as a mid range powder charge to zero a new .58cal Virginia at 50yds for deer hunting in the woods, then tested / confirmed 90grns 3F gave me the same POI.

 

[necchi]

Neechi..the trick to shooting these loads is not to flinch.

I couldn't do it! Just reading about a 125 3f load gives me a tick like Clint eastwood :haha:

And I don't get it either,, tellin ya 3f won't work, or 10 paragraphs how you should do it different, those guy's must have forgot to look at the target.
This is defenatly an exception to most common rules, but it does happen, I do think you
:youcrazy: for wanting to load that much, but us Minnesotans are used to that :haha: from anything east of the St.Croix

 

[jethro224]

Neechi..the trick to shooting these loads is not to flinch.

I couldn't do it! Just reading about a 125 3f load gives me a tick like Clint eastwood :haha:

And I don't get it either,, tellin ya 3f won't work, or 10 paragraphs how you should do it different, those guy's must have forgot to look at the target.
This is defenatly an exception to most common rules, but it does happen, I do think you
:youcrazy: for wanting to load that much, but us Minnesotans are used to that :haha: from anything east of the St.Croix

Ol' Dan might be :youcrazy: , but he can sure chuck 'em in there. :thumbsup: And he ain't scairt of big powder loads neither. 'Course there ain't much recoil when yer shootin' .62 caliber cheesepuff balls fer ammo. :wink: :haha:

 

[pchwcf50110]

And I don't get it either,, tellin ya 3f won't work, or 10 paragraphs how you should do it different, those guy's must have forgot to look at the target.
This is defenatly an exception to most common rules, but it does happen, I do think you
:youcrazy: for wanting to load that much, but us Minnesotans are used to that :haha: from anything east of the St.Croix[/quote]
i have used 3Fg in all my roundball rifles all the way up to 10 bore. the low opperating pressures with PRB's verified by using my strain gauge made me switch. i get better velocities, less fouling, and use less powder with 3Fg. one test i did years ago was comparing with the strain gauge in a .58 caliber rifle the following three loads: 130gr. 2fg and prb, 130gr. Goex 3Fg and prb, and 120gr. 2Fg and 525gr. buffalo bullet. the buffalo bullet load was 15,200psi, the 3Fg prb load was 11,000 psi and the 2Fg prb load was 9400 psi. if you play around with a strain gauge enough you will see some weird things that don't follow the prevailing wisdom. in some rifles with some loads Goex 2Fg and 3Fg are almost identical with regards to peak pressure. the force/time pressure peak is generally quicker with the 3Fg which would be expected but not always. the OP wad works in some of my rifles and others it creates havoc with accuracy turning from tight groups without to "patterns" on the target while using it. the results in this case seem to speak for themselves.

 

[zrifleman]

Reread the posts, and no one said "3 FG won't work" It's not the ideal powder for big bores and heavy bullets.

 

[roundball]

Reread the posts, and no one said "3 FG won't work" It's not the ideal powder for big bores and heavy bullets.

It might be that the problem some people are having with your unsubstantiated across the board statements from your posts is that they know better through hands on experience.

I myself have already pointed out to you twice that there is no accompanying logic in your posts to go along with your across the board statements in an effort to get you to supply that.

Another example is your latest across the board statement in the above quote...so I think its safe to summarize your posts thus far like this:
You have opinions and we respect your right to have those opinions...but unless / until you offer up rationle for the statements, they'll always just be opinions...nothing else.

By contrast, as I've already clarified, Goex 3F has been outstanding for me in several calibers and gauges including the big bores and gauges...in fact better than 2F...and that's from actual hands on experience, not opinion.

NOTE:
In closing...while I'm sure its not the case with you...one of the things a newcomer to a website needs to worry about is that the way they make posts could lead others to believe they might be a troll and that's never good of course.

 

[necchi]

Aw shucks, I was just teasin anyways, kinda caught up in the jovial spirit of the holidays, my apologeez if I stepped on toes or if my words were taken poorly :redface:
I really ment no harm.

 

[dbutch]

And I don't get it either,, tellin ya 3f won't work, or 10 paragraphs how you should do it different, those guy's must have forgot to look at the target.
This is defenatly an exception to most common rules, but it does happen, I do think you
:youcrazy: for wanting to load that much, but us Minnesotans are used to that :haha: from anything east of the St.Croix

i have used 3Fg in all my roundball rifles all the way up to 10 bore. the low opperating pressures with PRB's verified by using my strain gauge made me switch. i get better velocities, less fouling, and use less powder with 3Fg. one test i did years ago was comparing with the strain gauge in a .58 caliber rifle the following three loads: 130gr. 2fg and prb, 130gr. Goex 3Fg and prb, and 120gr. 2Fg and 525gr. buffalo bullet. the buffalo bullet load was 15,200psi, the 3Fg prb load was 11,000 psi and the 2Fg prb load was 9400 psi. if you play around with a strain gauge enough you will see some weird things that don't follow the prevailing wisdom. in some rifles with some loads Goex 2Fg and 3Fg are almost identical with regards to peak pressure. the force/time pressure peak is generally quicker with the 3Fg which would be expected but not always. the OP wad works in some of my rifles and others it creates havoc with accuracy turning from tight groups without to "patterns" on the target while using it. the results in this case seem to speak for themselves.[/quote]
Wow- Thanks for sharing your experience-very interesting-now I have someone to blame for buying a strain gauge!
Enjoyed your post...Dan

 

[dbutch]

Enjoyed your post-the three things I like best about Minnesota are --your 2 legged does..Betty's Pies on the North Shore -and the fact you have BF..throwing interceptions!-keep the rivalry going it makes my day!.....Now what day would work for your shooting lesson?
Merry Christmas...Dan

 

[dbutch]

Neechi..the trick to shooting these loads is not to flinch.

I couldn't do it! Just reading about a 125 3f load gives me a tick like Clint eastwood :haha:

And I don't get it either,, tellin ya 3f won't work, or 10 paragraphs how you should do it different, those guy's must have forgot to look at the target.
This is defenatly an exception to most common rules, but it does happen, I do think you
:youcrazy: for wanting to load that much, but us Minnesotans are used to that :haha: from anything east of the St.Croix

Ol' Dan might be :youcrazy: , but he can sure chuck 'em in there. :thumbsup: And he ain't scairt of big powder loads neither. 'Course there ain't much recoil when yer shootin' .62 caliber cheesepuff balls fer ammo. :wink: :haha:

Jethro- You make me laugh!--The shooting is pretty easy when you have lots of ammunition!

Merry Christmas...Dan

 

[dbutch]

Roundball...agreed-3 f works-for a number of reasons.I posted my results..nothing fudged here. no reason too. When someone has their mind closed to other ideas it goes stale. I am not on this forum to change minds..merely to share and enjoy.

The experience of other shooters is real.
Just give me the facts so I can prove them .

Thank you for sharing your experiences-mine has mirrored yours with 3f-Goex

Merry Christmas...Dan

 

[zrifleman]

Roundball--My opinions are based on 35 yrs of shooting traditional ML and BPCR. Your "proofs" are your own experiences and opinions. You prefer 3 FG in all your guns--great! It doesn't mean 1 FG and 2 FG don't perform as well or even better. Cocked hammers, burned patches and erroded nipples are the by products of heavy charges of 3FG in big bore ML and they don't contribute to better accuracy any more than higher velocity does. The old "mantra's about 1,2 and 3FG powder have been around since way before my grandfathers and are still true today. I'm not the one trying to reinvent the wheel. On the other hand, I have found that 3 FG works better than 2 FG with cast GG bullets in the .50 and .54 ML that we have experimented with.

 

[dbutch]

Roundball--My opinions are based on 35 yrs of shooting traditional ML and BPCR. Your "proofs" are your own experiences and opinions. You prefer 3 FG in all your guns--great! It doesn't mean 1 FG and 2 FG don't perform as well or even better. Cocked hammers, burned patches and erroded nipples are the by products of heavy charges of 3FG in big bore ML and they don't contribute to better accuracy any more than higher velocity does. The old "mantra's about 1,2 and 3FG powder have been around since way before my grandfathers and are still true today. I'm not the one trying to reinvent the wheel. On the other hand, I have found that 3 FG works better than 2 FG with cast GG bullets in the .50 and .54 ML that we have experimented with.

Zman- Is all of the above experience with percussion only? I'm not sure I would shoot 125 gr. in a percussion rifle. I shot a T/C 54 PC Renegade for 20 years and tried the high end loads and experienced the results above. None
of it was done using black powder. What is a GG bullet?
Thank you for your reply

Merry Christmas...Dan

 

[roundball]

We get that you like 2F better than 3F...and by all means no one disagrees that you should use 2F and enjoy every minute of it.

But...declaring that you like 2F does not magically mean that an across the board statement can be made insisting that 2F is better, 3F is not as good, etc, etc. It is simply YOUR personal preference...not some official world wide industry standard.

Blackpowder is all the same. The different granulations are all screened out of the same manufacturing run at the same time...its the same powder...the different granulations have different burn rates, pressure curves, and degrees of fouling.

The Internet wasn't available for most of the "35 years" you referred to so it was commonplace for a lot of people to simply accept the old hand-me-down folk lore of what to do...but during the past 10 years or so the Internet has now brought actual information and facts to our living rooms about matters like these, and there are some excellent informative articles on blackpowder manufacturing and characteristics you could Google up.