Help improving my group

[Salty Cracker]

Working on improving my group on my .32 caliber rifle. First rifle I've owned that I just can't seem to find the perfect load. Tried different patches and lubes with no improvement. Best to date is a 1" 5 shot group benched at 25yds. Using a .310 Hornady swaged ball, ox yoke prelubed .015 patch and 35gr FFF Goex. I feel like I should be able to shoot all 5 shots touching the same hole. Any advice. Let's rule out my shooting abilities. The rifle is the variable. Rice barrel. I started at 20gr and worked up to 40gr. 35gr is definitely what it likes. First .32 I've owned so not so familiar with it. My .40 was so much easier to sight in.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Working on improving my group on my .32 caliber rifle. First rifle I've owned that I just can't seem to find the perfect load. Tried different patches and lubes with no improvement. Best to date is a 1" 5 shot group benched at 25yds. Using a .310 Hornady swaged ball, ox yoke prelubed .015 patch and 35gr FFF Goex. I feel like I should be able to shoot all 5 shots touching the same hole. Any advice. Let's rule out my shooting abilities. The rifle is the variable. Rice barrel. I started at 20gr and worked up to 40gr. 35gr is definitely what it likes. First .32 I've owned so not so familiar with it. My .40 was so much easier to sight in.

Don't know what you are shooting at for a target, but if you want to get touching bullets (we all do) make sure you have a target that makes your eyes pinpoint dead denter. I suggest vertical and horizontal lines about 1/2" wide X 6" long, bright color, on white paper. Don't use a color that hides the front blade.
Sometimes it is not all the loads fault, but the eyes, sights, or target. JMO.
Larry

 

[64Springer]

Most guys would give their right *** for a 1-inch 5 shot group at 25 yards using a muzzleloader with iron sights.

A lot of guys couldn't hold a 1-inch 5 shot group with a modern rifle and a scope.

Have you considered bolting the rifle to the shooting bench?

That would cut back on movement considerably.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Here's what I do ... to find the 'Node'.

GIVEN - Every barrel on any type of firearm or firelock when shot, whips in a sine wave manner, vibrating like a sideways 'S'. The node is where the barrel is at the point(s) of the LEAST movement. That is when you want your shot to be fired. For some of us, good enough is good enough, but I do find this very interesting and fun to experiment with! And yes, it works with muzzleloaders like my 1560 wheellock just as well as it works on my precision 1,000 yard toy that goes bang.

I would repeat your testing and would test 3 to 5-shots each benched, starting @ 30, 1/2-way to 35 or 32-1/2, 35, 37-1/2 and 40-grains. All on the same target, like shown below. This allows you to compare group sizes. Sometimes 2 powdah charged adjacent to each other will display the smallest group (ignore where they impact - shoot for group size!). That would then be the charge range people further experiment around.

One fine point, if you truly want to eliminate YOU as the source of the variation, but clearly this takes some thinking, planning and careful loading. Do not fire the 30-grain charge all as one group, but VARY what load you shoot when, always switching it up. I make a simple table of the charge and number of the shot (like 1 thru 3) and then work around the table until I have fired 3 (or 5) shots of each at each respective bullseye. Statistically what this does is to normalize the data so that you can rely on it, significantly increasing the confidence you can place in the results.

Now please be aware that many will look at all this and say, "Harummphhhh, none of that is needed to have good results with black powdah ... " and they can be right. But - you asked - and this is the best way to wring all the precision out of your fire lock that you can. But look again at my target above ... which load would YOU use?

 

[Salty Cracker]

Don't know what you are shooting at for a target, but if you want to get touching bullets (we all do) make sure you have a target that makes your eyes pinpoint dead denter. I suggest vertical and horizontal lines about 1/2" wide X 6" long, bright color, on white paper. Don't use a color that hides the front blade.
Sometimes it is not all the loads fault, but the eyes, sights, or target. JMO.
Larry

Thanks Larry. I will try that. I usually just make my own targets. Trace a circle from something usually 1 1/5" to 2". I hold 6 o'clock. I find it makes good practice for squirrel. I don't eat the brains ha. I can still focus on that front sight clearly. Eyes are growing old but I still have it.

 

[Salty Cracker]

Most guys would give their right *** for a 1-inch group at 25 yards using a muzzleloader with iron sights.

A lot of guys couldn't hold a 1-inch group with a modern rifle and a scope.

Have you considered bolting the rifle to the shooting bench?

That would cut back on movement considerably.

Really? Well thanks you boosted my confidence. I know I have a good enough zero to squirrel hunt but thought it could be improved from listening to some of the folks shooting here. I never considered bolting it down but I have a super solid rest. My follow through is good as well.

 

[Salty Cracker]

Here's what I do ... to find the 'Node'.

GIVEN - Every barrel on any type of firearm or firelock when shot, whips in a sine wave manner, vibrating like a sideways 'S'. The node is where the barrel is at the point(s) of the LEAST movement. That is when you want your shot to be fired. For some of us, good enough is good enough, but I do find this very interesting and fun to experiment with! And yes, it works with muzzleloaders like my 1560 wheellock just as well as it works on my precision 1,000 yard toy that goes bang.

I would repeat your testing and would test 3 to 5-shots each benched, starting @ 30, 1/2-way to 35 or 32-1/2, 35, 37-1/2 and 40-grains. All on the same target, like shown below. This allows you to compare group sizes. Sometimes 2 powdah charged adjacent to each other will display the smallest group (ignore where they impact - shoot for group size!). That would then be the charge range people further experiment around.

One fine point, if you truly want to eliminate YOU as the source of the variation, but clearly this takes some thinking, planning and careful loading. Do not fire the 30-grain charge all as one group, but VARY what load you shoot when, always switching it up. I make a simple table of the charge and number of the shot (like 1 thru 3) and then work around the table until I have fired 3 (or 5) shots of each at each respective bullseye. Statistically what this does is to normalize the data so that you can rely on it, significantly increasing the confidence you can place in the results.

Now please be aware that many will look at all this and say, "Harummphhhh, none of that is needed to have good results with black powdah ... " and they can be right. But - you asked - and this is the best way to wring all the precision out of your fire lock that you can. But look again at my target above ... which load would YOU use?

That's definitely a very scientific way to approach to say the least. Thanks. Barrel harmonics and bedding have definitely been in the back of my head. I would say your 65gr group is the best. Two touching and the flyer is good windage wise just a bit high. Am I correct?

 

[64Springer]

Really? Well thanks you boosted my confidence. I know I have a good enough zero to squirrel hunt but thought it could be improved from listening to some of the folks shooting here. I never considered bolting it down but I have a super solid rest. My follow through is good as well.

Take what you hear about people's shooting prowess with a healthy dose of salt.

99 times out of 100 those boastful remarks aren't accompanied by photos to back up the claims.

 

[R Ellis]

try starting at 15 gr that is a good starting load

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Barrel harmonics and bedding have definitely been in the back of my head. I would say your 65gr group is the best. Two touching and the flyer is good windage wise just a bit high. Am I correct?

At woodswalks I'll use the 55-grn load ... why blow through powdah just to hit a gong? I went up to 100-grains and got another really accurate group - for hunting use - but it wreaks havoc on the gongs, so I don't use it on woodswalks. One common occurrence is that I usually find a good node right around the caliber size!

 

[Des52]

Ditch the prelubed patches unless you are the one prelubing, otherwise how do you know when they where lubed and how long they sat in storage. I always lube with mink oil and use tight woven wool patches. I never have to swab or clean till I am done shooting.

 

[ETipp]

Working on improving my group on my .32 caliber rifle. First rifle I've owned that I just can't seem to find the perfect load. Tried different patches and lubes with no improvement. Best to date is a 1" 5 shot group benched at 25yds. Using a .310 Hornady swaged ball, ox yoke prelubed .015 patch and 35gr FFF Goex. I feel like I should be able to shoot all 5 shots touching the same hole. Any advice. Let's rule out my shooting abilities. The rifle is the variable. Rice barrel. I started at 20gr and worked up to 40gr. 35gr is definitely what it likes. First .32 I've owned so not so familiar with it. My .40 was so much easier to sight in.

For my .32 Crockett Squirrel Rifle, 1" groups from 25 yards are the norm. I have shot better groups, and I have shot worse groups. But 1" is the average.

I highly encourage you to ditch the 6 O'clock hold, and make a target like the one in the pic. Its has a small aiming point 1.75" diamond. I have established that with this particular ML, the old term "aim small, miss small" could not be truer. Aim for the center of the diamond. The horizontal and vertical lines helps as well.

Now using:

.310 Swaged.

20.0 3F.

.015 ticking.

TOTW Mink Oil.

I got the same basic accuracy when using older and hardened Bore Butter as I do now with TOTW Mink Oil.

 

[Salty Cracker]

For my .32 Crockett Squirrel Rifle, 1" groups from 25 yards are the norm. I have shot better groups, however.

I highly encourage you to ditch the 6 O'clock hold, and make a target like the one in the pic. Its has a small aiming point 1.75" diamond. I have established that with this particular ML, the old term "aim small, miss small" could not be truer. Aim for the center of the diamond. The horizontal and vertical lines helps as well.

Now using:

.310 Swaged.

20.0 3F.

.015 ticking.

TOTW Mink Oil.

I got the same basic accuracy when using older and hardened Bore Butter as I do now with TOTW Mink Oil.

Interesting that you get your good group with basically the same loading but 20gr as opposed to 35 outta mine. Mine won't shoot 20 inside 2 inches. Must be the barrel twist. Don't wanna pull my barrel to find out exactly what it is. Rifle is too nice and I don't wanna bugger it up. I can't give up the 6oclock hold as.i think it is imperative to long range shooting. Holding center of target on a squirrel head in dim woods is like tryin to shoot a black cat eating black licorice in a coal bin. My humble opinion.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I think you would do better with a larger ball (.315) and 20 grains fffg out to 50 yards. 40 grains at 100 yards.

 

[Salty Cracker]

I think you would do better with a larger ball (.315) and 20 grains fffg out to 50 yards. 40 grains at 100 yards.

I thought about that. I may try it. Why do you think?

 

[Banjoman]

For what it’s worth, my .50 caliber Thompson Center Hawken and .50 caliber Traditions Kentucky rifles both shoot a .495 ball more accurately than a .490 ball. I know you’re shooting a .32 caliber but concept is the same.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I thought about that. I may try it. Why do you think?

I've been competing with .32 and .36 caliber flint and percussion rifles for almost 40 years. For most of them I use a .313-.315 ball and .010 patching, but some do better with an .015 patch. 20 grains fffg works well in most .32 barrels but if the twist is a bit on the slow side then 30 grains works better.

Hope this helps.

 

[Brokennock]

How certain are we that those swaged balls have a small standard deviation. I've read very mixed reviews of them.
Maybe weigh a bunch. Test your load with a bunch that weight the same.
Maybe try some cast balls, also weighed.

 

[Salty Cracker]

How certain are we that those swaged balls have a small standard deviation. I've read very mixed reviews of them.
Maybe weigh a bunch. Test your load with a bunch that weight the same.
Maybe try some cast balls, also weighed.

I guess none really. Only assuming that. I was shooting cast balls but was trying to rule out any variables. Havnt weighed any. Was planning on that when I start casting for them

 

[ETipp]

Interesting that you get your good group with basically the same loading but 20gr as opposed to 35 outta mine. Mine won't shoot 20 inside 2 inches. Must be the barrel twist. Don't wanna pull my barrel to find out exactly what it is. Rifle is too nice and I don't wanna bugger it up. I can't give up the 6oclock hold as.i think it is imperative to long range shooting. Holding center of target on a squirrel head in dim woods is like tryin to shoot a black cat eating black licorice in a coal bin. My humble opinion.

Indeed, different rifles like different loadings. A 1" group from 25 yards is not difficult to achieve.

Salty, no disrespect intended whatsoever. And perhaps your particular vision dictates differently. And by all means, whatever you want to do is up to you.

However, IMO a 6"Oclock hold is not needed whatsoever, especially while hunting with a .32 caliber ML. Indeed, a squirrels head is a small target, but you can still see it with a normal center target aim.

Even after a fair amount of research and some NRA input this, as well as with what some contend, I cannot understand why anyone would choose to use a 6 O'clock hold while hunting. We don't use it with a scattergun. We don't use it with a scoped rifle. We don't use it with handguns, we don't even use it with compound bows.

With that said, I have given you, as well as others, the facts on ***"aim small, miss small"*** with a .32 caliber ML. I have tested this to its entirety with my Crockett Squirrel Rifle with different targets and different size aiming dots, as well as on over 43 squirrels this season thus far. If you can see the front bead, you can put it on center mass. And in terms of target shooting, a smaller aiming dot is key.

But its your party and everyone to their own thing I reckon.

Stick with and Good luck. I'm sure you will be able to find the optimum loading.