Reassurance needed, Question regarding Lock Finish

[MattinIdaho]

Dear All,

New to the forum and really appreciate all the great info and friendly banter that goes on here compared to other places.

Picked up my first (In a long time) Flintlock, the British officer's Musket by NorthStarWest. Ordered from Dixie Gun Works and got it within a week.

Love how the gun handles and feels. Upon inspection of the Lock, I noticed there are alot of casting (?) marks on the neck of the cock, and the crown "stamp" was not complete, the top of the crown image does not seem to have been stamped into the lock. (From other images online it should have a cross atop the crown).

Are these normal marks? Does this pass your opinion on Finish QC?

I know these things do not affect function. I also know these are hand finished (?) so i understand there will be differences. But for a poor Grad student, I just wanted to know what to expect. Please reassure a poor student just getting into the blackpowder!

Is this in the realm of Normal Finish for you, given if what was spent was a hefty sum (for me) for a flintlock smoothbore?

Photo shows as it came from Dixie. Im guessing NSW or They test the flints/Frizzens?

Thank you for your time. Im sorry if its been asked before but I had not seen it using search.

I used the photo-ReSizer so it is alot harder to see but there is alot of rough metal along the curve of the cock and the top cross of the crown is missing.

Sorry for all the newb questions. Im not trying to whine at all. I just dont know anything of what to expect. If someone came to me about their Colt AR-15 (something i know a little more about) about Finish id tell them the price is right and they ain't always a perfect black anodizing but they are great. If this is similar, thats all I wanted to know.

 

[MattinIdaho]

Maybe this is better, resized again.

 

[Spikebuck]

Matt, if there is any way you can get a better picture, or pictures posted, I think that would help. If you load pictures to a place like Photobucket and then post the IMG code here, the pictures show up full-sized. I'm sure people here can give you good advice, but for me, I can't tell anything from that small picture.

 

[Spikebuck]

Matt, you must have been posting while I was! That picture is a little clearer.

That wouldn't pass my personal quality finish test. I'm sure it's functional and probably wouldn't take too much work to finish up nicely if you like and want to keep the gun.

 

[Zonie]

I assume the flintlock shown in this link is the one you bought?
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_186_190&products_id=859

I really haven't heard anything good or bad about NorthStarWest except the gun is made in the USA.

Just between us, for the price Dixie is asking for that gun I would expect to see no flaws at all.

Scratches on the face of the frizzen are to be expected if the lock was tested by the maker but evidence of casting gates/risers/parting lines should IMO have been removed.

I would advise that you call Dixie and ask them about these and the mis-stamped lock markings.

The worst they can tell you is, "That's the way they are made."
The best thing they might say is, "We'll send you a shipper so you can send it back and we'll replace it."

 

[Stumpkiller]

Officer's Fusils were private purchase and there was no pattern for how the lock should be marked. The "Crown" did not own it. The officer who bought it did; so it may or may not have sported the "GR", crown, maker/armory name and date as did issued muskets. It would have been individually engraved.

 

[MattinIdaho]

Zonie,

Yes, thats the one.

Thanks very much for your reply and everyones. On the fence about it.

 

[pargent]

These guns are copies of originals so you get to an extent a gun that looks like the original, take into con sideration the cost you paid for the gun then add the cost of the extras to complete the items you mentioned . This why when you order from the US builder there are levels of finish and details and price adjustments to suit. All manufactures big ones over seas to the much smaller US ones who supply to the chain stores supply a gun to a set price and features , purchasing from the national distributer ,agent or the builder will allways offer more options on details and finish . This is also basic retail SOP for every thing from colour pencils to private aircraft.If you got it cheap good stop moaning and detail it yourself that's the game and what most of the handy guys on this site do for giggles .

 

[MattinIdaho]

Gorgeous gun there Stumpkiller. Someday!!!

Yeah i like the Crown Stamp, I was just hoping it would be the full crown and not one that had the top cross cutoff/failed to stamp fully into the metal.

 

[pargent]

The term OFFICERS FUSSIL is used and branded quite loosely in the US to refere to a very general style of gun I feel that this is a marketing thing to provide a gun to the general puplic that may meet different needs for different buyers. The real deal is still being made in Briton but you will need some very serious dollars to have one fit and made for you .FYI at times depending on the Regiment and it's operational requirements Officers were issued long arms from stores ,very rare and not to my knowledge in North America . On the whole Officers supplied their own arms either to Regimental standards or to their own fancies ,when looking into the field of Officer's guns you must need to know who the person was , during the F&I and AWI period it was not uncommon to find a junior Officer who out ranked his Regt. CO. in military and social standing .

 

[MattinIdaho]

Thanks for all the Info 1601. Appreciate it.

It is my understanding that NSW took an example that is in the Smithsonian American History Museum.

That to me is very cool and interesting. I am not currently a re-enactor or anything like that.

I purchased a Flintlock because i am a Gun Nut and love everything about them, i would try and own/experience shooting everything from Matchlocks to HK416's and everything in between. I love learning about them and the makers and users of them over the years. I do love history and can appreciate these nuances. i honestly dont mind the choices taken in their decision on this gun, I just am wondering if the Finish Issues are to be expected given the pricepoint and other's experiences.

That being said from your post, it sounds like to me i will be saving up for a long time to get the real deal as you're talking about! But for me it was a fair chunk of change and i wanted to try if at all possible to Get a US made gun.

 

[LaBonte]

The term OFFICERS FUSSIL is used and branded quite loosely in the US to refere to a very general style of gun I feel that this is a marketing thing to provide a gun to the general puplic that may meet different needs for different buyers. The real deal is still being made in Briton but you will need some very serious dollars to have one fit and made for you .FYI at times depending on the Regiment and it's operational requirements Officers were issued long arms from stores ,very rare and not to my knowledge in North America . On the whole Officers supplied their own arms either to Regimental standards or to their own fancies ,when looking into the field of Officer's guns you must need to know who the person was , during the F&I and AWI period it was not uncommon to find a junior Officer who out ranked his Regt. CO. in military and social standing .

As noted the NSW Officer's model is a copy of an original in the Smithsonian - per their site so it not just a marketing ploy and is the real deal. http://www.northstarwest.com/officers_musket.aspx

As for the quality of the gun's finish in question - these are offered as kit's, in the white, and finished guns. Knowing the good rep of the owners for quality work, in particular the current owner Matt Denison aka laffindog here on MLF, I'd bet the piece was made from a kit and the maker didn't do all what was required to properly finish it. I would be VERY surprised that it came finished that way from the shop.
For more info on this particular piece PM Matt/laffindog or you can email or call him vai his website.

FWIW - Crown stamps on various items from the 18th/19th Century do not necessarily denote the item was intended for government issue, but may indicate that the maker had made quality items for the crown and was thus awarded the right ot note such in various ways including the crwon stamp. For instance on some trade knives you will have the crown with GR (for Georgus Rex - Latin for King George) below it as a touchmark, yet those knives were never government issue.

 

[MattinIdaho]

LaBonte,

Thanks for the reply and suggestion. I have emailed Mr Dennison the photos.

I ordered it from Dixie as a finished piece less than a week ago, the price seems to reflect similar finished prices direct from NSW. Maybe it was a mixup ?

 

[pargent]

YEP YEP FULLY UP TO SPEED :thumbsup: it's the broad arrow and crown that denotes the King's ownership .

 

[pargent]

Wasn't dishing on your gun , I was just prempting the usual uniformed tirade that I expected to follow ,it didn't come , FYI I have one of NSW'S very early cheif's guns very happy with it even though it was quite old when Ipurchased it and it was a rescue job

 

[TinStar]

Be careful Matt. Your other guns might start to collect dust. This can be an addiction.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[54ball]

I was able to blow up your pics on my machine. So I can see the area you are reffering to. It's right there at the round of the gooseneck, located right below the jaw bolt.

That would bother the fire out of me for about 30 minutes. Thats about how long it would take me to find my tools and remove that area with a file.
Afterward I would polish it.

I might could carefully do it with the lock still mounted on the gun, otherwise, it may require removal of the lock and the cock from the lock.

You really need the right tools for this. It's a pretty simple fix for the cock, but if all you have is Kmart automotive tools and no skill in this type of work, you may do more harm than good.

Someone that is skilled with an engraver could finish the crown in about the same time it took me to type this on this wii. I would not atempt it as I'm not skilled in engraving. Missing part of the engraving is common with investment cast steel parts.

I know I'm leaving myself open for "high school humor" but what concerns me is this. The cock is the focal point. That is what the eye is drawn to on a gun like this. When I see a Brown Bess the first thing I notice is the big goose neck cock. The cock and lock is the visual center piece.

If the detail of the cock and lock is sloppy, how is the rest of the gun? How is the wood to metal fit? Is it shaped correctly? Does it have the grace of a true "officer's gun"? That would be my main concern.

If the only thing wrong with it is the cock and lock, I would say she is a keeper. On the other hand if the rest of the gun was sloppily constructed I may reevaluate the purchase.

If the rest of the gun checks out, I would say you got your moneys worth. Could you have gotten better for the money? Probably, but no matter what you purchase from cars to hamburger meat, there's always a better deal out there, thats just life.

Again, if the rest of the gun checks out I would say she is a keeper. If there is more sloppy workmanship I would send it back.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Frankly the poorly stamped crown should go back. They stamp the barrels as the original, their ad does not say they stamp the lock as original, and even so, a lock plate that poorly stamped would probably not have left the armory. Stamping a round faced lock plate is difficult as it requires a double strike and a slight rolling of the stamp. This looks like it was positioned and hit once.

On the other hand if it's not too deep you could have it polished out, and then have the lock plate embellished with a little bit of scroll engraving, giving you a piece a bit more than "out-of-the-box" eh? :wink:

LD

 

[matt denison]

P M sent.

 

[MSW]

my two cents worth - i agree... if this is all that's wrong with it, the flaws should be pretty easy to fix (but then again, i assume that you have the tools, the skills and the inclination to spend the time at it ... tinkering with this stuff is half the fun, i think, but then again, some say i'm nuts) ...

just one guy's opinion ... free and no doubt well worth the price.