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post hawkin here
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gmww
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Unless you want to see a Cabelas Hawkens that's all I got. 
As far as Hawkens anyways. I hope to find a new gun at the Show coming up on the 11th. That's sort of the reason I'd like to see some examples of what you all have. I'm going to be looking at the TOTW too for some ideas. Of course if a pretty Underhammer jumps out at me while at the show, my photo will be different. :grin:
As far as Hawkens anyways. I hope to find a new gun at the Show coming up on the 11th. That's sort of the reason I'd like to see some examples of what you all have. I'm going to be looking at the TOTW too for some ideas. Of course if a pretty Underhammer jumps out at me while at the show, my photo will be different. :grin:Guest
Fred for such a short post you really hit on a lot of interesting things. You're right, the original Hawken shop and store in St. Louis were not located in the same place.
As far as the locks are concerned. Many were made at the Hawken shop but many were also contracted out to other makers. Thomas Gibbons of Covington Kentucky made a great many on the later S. Hawken rifles. Mariano Modenas rifle was refitted with a lock made by Adolphus Meier. Not to mention how many other original Hawken rifles may have been refitted with a new lock. In many cases this would require enlarging the lock mortise. Even new, locks made in the Hawken shop were in all likelihood not the same exact size as locks made by outside contractors. Thus different sized locks and lock mortises.
I refer you to the overleaf in Bairds book Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's choice. Observe the original Hawkens pictured on pages vi and vii. Note that no two are even close to being exact copies of each other. Also note though, all the similar charecteristics they share. There's no doubt they are all of the same lineage.
As far as accurate copies of the originals go, you could do no wrong by going with drawings(Blue Prints) from either Don Stith or Don Lauer. Though they differ slightly from each other, technically speaking, they are also both historically correct.
As far as the locks are concerned. Many were made at the Hawken shop but many were also contracted out to other makers. Thomas Gibbons of Covington Kentucky made a great many on the later S. Hawken rifles. Mariano Modenas rifle was refitted with a lock made by Adolphus Meier. Not to mention how many other original Hawken rifles may have been refitted with a new lock. In many cases this would require enlarging the lock mortise. Even new, locks made in the Hawken shop were in all likelihood not the same exact size as locks made by outside contractors. Thus different sized locks and lock mortises.
I refer you to the overleaf in Bairds book Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's choice. Observe the original Hawkens pictured on pages vi and vii. Note that no two are even close to being exact copies of each other. Also note though, all the similar charecteristics they share. There's no doubt they are all of the same lineage.
As far as accurate copies of the originals go, you could do no wrong by going with drawings(Blue Prints) from either Don Stith or Don Lauer. Though they differ slightly from each other, technically speaking, they are also both historically correct.
Guest
This really makes me wish I had a scanner so I could post some pictures of mine. I did just get a new picture cell phone and supposedly you can email pictures with it. If I can figure it out I'll do that.
Get ahold of the Hawken Shop in Oak Harbor, WA and see what they may have for pictures. They bought the original equipment from the original Hawken shop from Art Ressel in 1990.
Get ahold of the Hawken Shop in Oak Harbor, WA and see what they may have for pictures. They bought the original equipment from the original Hawken shop from Art Ressel in 1990.
Guest
John, what particular detail in the shape of the buttstock are you looking for? Try and give me all the particulars and I will try my very best to get you some answers. :thumbsup:
I'll try and keep this short er. Flyboy, the more I read the more I need to know! Anyone know how to pull out old Hawken stuff on here , cant use the name as in J.Brownning Mountain Rifle got off into the Hawk too.Anyway whats the thing about the Modenas Haken? I havent found a lot out about who he was , excecpt for the story by "B" in 67, and it got rebuilt in Denver. Did you order those back issues? I havent got the first "B" book yet 55 is just a bit high right this second, but I got the second and the Plains Rifle(for 30) they also have 1 for 25 at/ 613 525 3840 i think it's # 1672. And I cant wait to see what John H is doing I know it will be really good. One other thing that stands out is how they sand he wood around the lock, in front of the hammer, and still you know what it is , I liked the one that has the "shotgun stock , you can still tell who made it, and I'm a fall guy for any thats got the silver stars or a Indian has done his own thing to it. Got to run pick up the kid , will be back later Fred :hatsoff:
Guest
Hi Fred, I have'nt got around to try and get those back issues yet. I'll try and work on that either tomorrow or Friday. I'm currently on a mission trying to find out some specifics on the Modena rifle for John H. Still waiting for a little more input from him though.
The Modena rifle has received a lot of notriety due to it's pristine condition as well as it's very unusual star inlays and fancy patchbox. This was a rather early rifle being made around 1833. And was well before Tristam Campbell and Christian Hoffman began doing work for the Hawken shop. It's guesstimated that around 1860 while Sam Hawken was residing in Denver Colorado that Mariano brought his favorite rifle to him for some repairs. Anew lock, barrel, and patent breech were installed. And it's quite possible that new trigger works were also installed at this time. The rear sight was also found to be rather unusual for a hawken made in 1833 so that may have been replaced as well.
Modena was a famed hunter and Indian scout born in taos New Mexico in 1812. He was involved in the Fremont expedition in 1843. He also spent some time with Jim Bridger. A rather interesting individual.
The Modena rifle has received a lot of notriety due to it's pristine condition as well as it's very unusual star inlays and fancy patchbox. This was a rather early rifle being made around 1833. And was well before Tristam Campbell and Christian Hoffman began doing work for the Hawken shop. It's guesstimated that around 1860 while Sam Hawken was residing in Denver Colorado that Mariano brought his favorite rifle to him for some repairs. Anew lock, barrel, and patent breech were installed. And it's quite possible that new trigger works were also installed at this time. The rear sight was also found to be rather unusual for a hawken made in 1833 so that may have been replaced as well.
Modena was a famed hunter and Indian scout born in taos New Mexico in 1812. He was involved in the Fremont expedition in 1843. He also spent some time with Jim Bridger. A rather interesting individual.
Guest
Dave, go ahead and show it. I'm assuming it's the first kit gun you bought and are intending to put together. Although it's not a true hawken or a correct repro of same. It does follow in the lines of same. Go ahead and show it to us. we would be happy to see it.
I'd even encourage you to keep us updated on your progress. It will certainly be something you can take pride in being you basically built it yourself so to speak.
I wish you the best of luck in putting it together. And I hope you get much enjoyment in shooting it. Keep us posted on your progress.
I'd even encourage you to keep us updated on your progress. It will certainly be something you can take pride in being you basically built it yourself so to speak.
I wish you the best of luck in putting it together. And I hope you get much enjoyment in shooting it. Keep us posted on your progress.
Quote fw : "...I havent got the first "B" book yet 55 is just a bit high right this second, but I got the second and the Plains Rifle..."
___________________________________
Is this refering to John Bairds two books?
Although no one asked, here is my opinion.
HAWKEN RIFLES -The Mountain Man's Choice copywrite 1968 is an excellent book to have.
The information, photos, drawings and in general the continuity are excellent.
This was the first book of Mr Bairds that I bought and I couldn't wait for FIFTEEN YEARS IN THE HAWKEN LODE to arrive after I ordered it.
I was quite bummed out after it finally arrived.
Very little information, compared with the first book and spending far too much time dwelling on Dinglehoofer and his adventure and mail (as though I cared).
IMO, if you want a LOT of information first buy HAWKEN RIFLES -The Mountain Man's Choice .
If you can afford to buy another book then buy Charles E. Hanson, Jr.'s THE PLAINS RIFLE , an excellent book that covers the Hawken AND many of the other rifles which were used on the Plains.
If you have some extra money burning a hole in your pocket after you have bought these two books, and you want to be able to say "I have both of Bairds books", then, and only then, go ahead and buy FIFTEEN YEARS IN THE HAWKEN LODE
Zonie :grin:
___________________________________
Is this refering to John Bairds two books?
Although no one asked, here is my opinion.
HAWKEN RIFLES -The Mountain Man's Choice copywrite 1968 is an excellent book to have.
The information, photos, drawings and in general the continuity are excellent.
This was the first book of Mr Bairds that I bought and I couldn't wait for FIFTEEN YEARS IN THE HAWKEN LODE to arrive after I ordered it.
I was quite bummed out after it finally arrived.
Very little information, compared with the first book and spending far too much time dwelling on Dinglehoofer and his adventure and mail (as though I cared).
IMO, if you want a LOT of information first buy HAWKEN RIFLES -The Mountain Man's Choice .
If you can afford to buy another book then buy Charles E. Hanson, Jr.'s THE PLAINS RIFLE , an excellent book that covers the Hawken AND many of the other rifles which were used on the Plains.
If you have some extra money burning a hole in your pocket after you have bought these two books, and you want to be able to say "I have both of Bairds books", then, and only then, go ahead and buy FIFTEEN YEARS IN THE HAWKEN LODE
Zonie :grin:
Guest
Got that one too Zonie. The next one i'm going to get is Chuck Hansens book, the Plains Rifle. I think that's the only book I'm lacking on the subject.
JOHN L. HINNANT
45 Cal.
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Greetings Flyboy,
Well, let me try to discribe what I am trying to find out about the Modena Hawken.
The Modena rifle is a J&S Hawken with a long patch box. As you know most, not all, S. Hawkens did not have a patch box.
If you examine a S. Hawken in the butt stock area, looking straight down from the top of the comb, you will see that the there is not a straight line from the butt plate through the wrist to the back of the lock panel.
Instead of a straight line, there is curve or bulge that starts flaring out from the butt plate, and then at about the center of butt stock begins to taper or blend back into the wrist.
It seems to me that this bludge or swell, which is quite pronounced, would make installing a long patch box very difficult. The patch box would have to be bent to match the curve of the butt stock.
So my question is, does the Modena Hawken have this shape in the butt stock?
I have examined a custom Hawken that is suppose to be an exact copy of the Modena rifle. On this rifle the stock shape is a staight line tapering from the butt plate to the wrist.
Unfortunately, the maker of this rifle died some years back, so I have been unable to talk to him. Even got deperate enough to try a seance, but all I could get was was some guy named George complaining about too many indians.
Also have been trying to locate the Ed White who made the Modena copy that is pictured in John Baird's book on Hawken rifles, but have had no luck there.
Flyboy, I hope I was able to describe clearly enough for you to understand what detail on the Modena Hawken I am trying to get information on.
If you can help out with this detail, I will be most appreciative.
With all of the noted and sketches I made some years back, this is one detail that got overlooked.
Best regards and good shooting,
John L. Hinnant
Well, let me try to discribe what I am trying to find out about the Modena Hawken.
The Modena rifle is a J&S Hawken with a long patch box. As you know most, not all, S. Hawkens did not have a patch box.
If you examine a S. Hawken in the butt stock area, looking straight down from the top of the comb, you will see that the there is not a straight line from the butt plate through the wrist to the back of the lock panel.
Instead of a straight line, there is curve or bulge that starts flaring out from the butt plate, and then at about the center of butt stock begins to taper or blend back into the wrist.
It seems to me that this bludge or swell, which is quite pronounced, would make installing a long patch box very difficult. The patch box would have to be bent to match the curve of the butt stock.
So my question is, does the Modena Hawken have this shape in the butt stock?
I have examined a custom Hawken that is suppose to be an exact copy of the Modena rifle. On this rifle the stock shape is a staight line tapering from the butt plate to the wrist.
Unfortunately, the maker of this rifle died some years back, so I have been unable to talk to him. Even got deperate enough to try a seance, but all I could get was was some guy named George complaining about too many indians.
Also have been trying to locate the Ed White who made the Modena copy that is pictured in John Baird's book on Hawken rifles, but have had no luck there.
Flyboy, I hope I was able to describe clearly enough for you to understand what detail on the Modena Hawken I am trying to get information on.
If you can help out with this detail, I will be most appreciative.
With all of the noted and sketches I made some years back, this is one detail that got overlooked.
Best regards and good shooting,
John L. Hinnant
Guest
flyboy said:
Mariano may have gone to the mountains in 1833 but the "Modena Hawken" didn't. This rifle is a post 1842 Hawken rifle probably made by Hoffman & Campbell for the Hawken concern. That is not only my opinion but other Hawken students as well. Take another gander at it and other rifles of that decade Flyboy, I think you'll see what I mean. The flat to wrist guards don't show up on any Hawken guns until after H&C started building rifles for the Hawken Bros. After that, Sam was still using these guards now and then clear up through the 1855+ period. See Kennett Rifle for one.
Don :thumbsup:
Lots of stuff here. Ive been trying to track down the Hawken I thought I bought from the gun shop in Mo that swampman put up a while back , gave the guy my MC # he closed and wont get in touch with me anymore?? Im afraid to ck my account, or maybe I shouldnt of told him TOTW said theyed buy it back. I was hopeing to find a used Mountain Mans Choice but they are higher than a new one so I got the other 2 "Load" and "PLains Rifle",and next week I'll get MMC. Didn't mean to get everyone upset about the Modena rifle, I was reading the old MBs that Baird wrote about that one being old, rebuilt in Denver, ect, and had never heard of the guy, so I was just wondering why so much came up about him and the rifle. I see no one belives the same thing about it. Well Im going to ck the guy 1 more time and my card. Will catch up with everyone in a while Have a good day FRED :hatsoff:
I put it up, not Swampman, if you are talking about the TOW Hawken. I drove by yesterday and the shop was closed. John is not a crook or never has been. Try him early because he also works a regular job. If there is a problem and your card was charged, let me know and I will see if I can track him down.
Guest
John, after spending considerable time studying a picture of the Modena rifle's buttstock I can't really tell if that patchbox was bent or possibly offcentered so slightly that the naked eye could'nt tell.
I'm even wondering if the Buttstock may even be flat. That type of patchbox is certainly not the norm for a Hawken made as early as that
I asked my friend John Bergmann what hr thought and he said "The stock would have been configured and nearly finished before the patchbox would have been installed. He doubts that the Hawken shop would have changed it's stock configuration for that event. He further stated that bending & installing a box is not that difficult at all. He ended by saying that although he's never personally seen the rifle, maybe the buttstock is flat.
I emailed both the Colorado Historical Society and museum as well and am waiting for their replies. I'll let you know what they have to say as soon as I hear from them.
I'm even wondering if the Buttstock may even be flat. That type of patchbox is certainly not the norm for a Hawken made as early as that
I asked my friend John Bergmann what hr thought and he said "The stock would have been configured and nearly finished before the patchbox would have been installed. He doubts that the Hawken shop would have changed it's stock configuration for that event. He further stated that bending & installing a box is not that difficult at all. He ended by saying that although he's never personally seen the rifle, maybe the buttstock is flat.
I emailed both the Colorado Historical Society and museum as well and am waiting for their replies. I'll let you know what they have to say as soon as I hear from them.
Guest
Don, I've got to disagree with you on this one. Mariano Modena claimed he purchased that rifle in 1833. I'm now going to quote the Master himself: "The writer will not dispute the 1833 date given as a date of purchase by Modena. The charecteristics of the buttplate, trigger guard, escutcheons, shape of stock, and type of wood, all place the stock in the 1830 to 1840 period. J&S Hawken rifles of that period are often found stocked in walnut, as is the Modena rifle. It is the barrel and lock that offer the most points of conflict, and a logical explanation appears upon close study of these points".
Check out the picture of two early 1830-1840 rifles on page #2 Of Bairds first book. Note the flat wrist guards.
Check out the picture of two early 1830-1840 rifles on page #2 Of Bairds first book. Note the flat wrist guards.
Runner I got a hold of him today , he's catching up on his sleep after moveing , he had left me with the understanding he'd mail it that day ( a week ago) and I never thought he was a crook or I wouldnt of given him the # knowing he was closeing and as I said Ive never cked to see if he put it on the card. Its on the front of the truck and he'll ship it when he gets it unloaded ,Got to go pick up the kid at school ..Fred :hatsoff:
This thread must set a record for length, staying on topic (mostly), and no serious flair ups of temper when folks disagree.
To those of you who want to build one of these rifles but don't have access to any of the originals or well made copies, be aware of the fact that there are many more subtle differences than those that show up in photos. Just dealing with stocks based on originals, the length of pull, drop, and lock panels are very different--apparently all very much PC, but illustrating the great differences in the original rifles, even those built in the same era.
As others have pointed out, there are very subtle curves in the lines which photos don't reveal and which aren't illustrated on any of the blueprints I have seen, since these tend to be two demensional.
The difference between a two demensional copy and one with the subtle curves built in is very obvious when you see them side by side.
Don Stith sell really good parts and his stocks are cut close enough to the finished demensions that you don't have to guess how the lines should run. I've seen some others which might be made into nice gun, but only be someone who can reshape certain areas correctly.
Also, its surprising to me how small differences can effect the weight and balance of the rifle. I've never handled a Hawken made with a straight barrel which balanced right to me--they need a taper. I have one made with a 1 1/8" to 1" .54 cal. rice barrel 36 inches long which is a great x-stick rifle, but I don't want to shoot in offhand very much or carry it hunting. I have another with a 1" to 7/8" .54 barrel, also 36" long, which is a pleasure to shoot off hand and my favorite hunting rifle.
By the way, for those of you who like me are trying to find a copy of Baird's first book, Track has it in the catalogue but none in stock and no indication that it will be reprinted.
To those of you who want to build one of these rifles but don't have access to any of the originals or well made copies, be aware of the fact that there are many more subtle differences than those that show up in photos. Just dealing with stocks based on originals, the length of pull, drop, and lock panels are very different--apparently all very much PC, but illustrating the great differences in the original rifles, even those built in the same era.
As others have pointed out, there are very subtle curves in the lines which photos don't reveal and which aren't illustrated on any of the blueprints I have seen, since these tend to be two demensional.
The difference between a two demensional copy and one with the subtle curves built in is very obvious when you see them side by side.
Don Stith sell really good parts and his stocks are cut close enough to the finished demensions that you don't have to guess how the lines should run. I've seen some others which might be made into nice gun, but only be someone who can reshape certain areas correctly.
Also, its surprising to me how small differences can effect the weight and balance of the rifle. I've never handled a Hawken made with a straight barrel which balanced right to me--they need a taper. I have one made with a 1 1/8" to 1" .54 cal. rice barrel 36 inches long which is a great x-stick rifle, but I don't want to shoot in offhand very much or carry it hunting. I have another with a 1" to 7/8" .54 barrel, also 36" long, which is a pleasure to shoot off hand and my favorite hunting rifle.
By the way, for those of you who like me are trying to find a copy of Baird's first book, Track has it in the catalogue but none in stock and no indication that it will be reprinted.
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