Peter Alexander on Powder Ignition

[Jim Martin]

This may have been talked about here before, I did a search and did not see anything, so my apologies if this has already been aptly covered here.

In regards to "Which powder will ignite faster?" Peter Alexander in his book, " The Gunsmith of Grenville County" states the following: "Incidentally, which powder will ignite faster: FFFFg, FFFg, or FFg? Answer: They all ignite equally. This conclusion is the result of the latest scientific testing of flintlocks. The implication is that you can quite well use your barrel powder to prime your lock. You can also get rid of that ridiculous little priming horn, which was never used in the 18th or early 19th century. At that time there were only two powders anyway. Besides, nobody had time to fool with two different grades of powder when loading a gun. The priming horn idea comes from the 1930s when the first black powder shooters were starting to reuse these old guns."

So my questions are, "Since Mr. Alexander claims that the ignition rate is the same for the 3 grades he mentions, why do a lot of people recommend and use FFFFg in the pan?"

I have read in some various posts here on the forum that some members do indeed use their "barrel powder" for priming.

Just wondering why I still see FFFFG being recommended, is Mr. Alexander correct in his statement?


Thanks, Cumberland

 

[necchi]

Mr Alexander has probably never seen Swiss Null-B powder in action.
While he is correct about the historical use of one powder, I wonder under what context the question was asked,,how was the question framed?

You could get different answers if it was asked differently. I'd cut him some slack in his statement until I saw/read the entire interview. The key word here is "Ignite" vrs "Burn".

 

[Jim Martin]

This was not an interview. Mr Alexander's book is on building the American Longrifle.

It is a "how to" book put together in part from his articles that appeared in Muzzloader Magazine. I like the book very much.

By the way I am not arguing his statement, I am merely asking if there are are folks here who agree with the statement.

If this statement is correct, then I myself would be anxious to try it. Hence my questions.

Cumberland

 

[rabjr]

I think you'll find theres a lot in that book that people don't exactly agree with.

 

[Claude Mathis]

I have no idea how fast my powder ignites (never timed it). I leave the science to others.

I can load and prime with FFFg and it works fine for me. Loading and priming with FFg also seems to work okay. If one is faster or slower, I don't perceive it when shooting.

 

[necchi]

OK, take a look at the statement in context;

"The implication is that you can quite well use your barrel powder to prime your lock."

By all means do so, it will work just fine.

Are there other, or perhaps different ways to prime? Yes.

I've seen guy's go through all manner of preperation for their priming. From grinding powders to mixing powders to "I won't tell ya it's a secret" powders,, It's almost as mysterious a lore as patch lubrication, ask what's best and you'll get 100 answers from 150 guys.

So Mr Peter Alexander (with all respect) is telling it straight out, your barrel powder works.
:idunno:

 

[George]

At that time there were only two powders anyway.

Can't contribute anything to the ignition speed question, but Alexander is wrong about the availability of grades of powder.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
September 25, 1736
Charleston, South Carolina

JUST imported in the King George, Jacob Ayres from London, white and colour'd plains, strip'd duffils, bullets, shot, F FF FFF gunpowder, Saxe Gotha hoop-petticoats....

Spence

 

[BrownBear]

Last year I traded off my remaining 1 1/2 cans of 4f. Not only was it a liability in the pan in our very wet climate, my own shooting comparisons simply couldn't detect a "speed" difference in using my bore powder in the pan. For going on three years now I have used whichever powder is in my horn for priming and never noticed slower ignition, much less hang fires or failures to fire. And I'm not just talking 2f and 3f here. My Brown Bess doesn't seem to know that it's being fed 1f in the pan. Shoots just as fast and well as it ever did with finer powders.

 

[Jim Martin]

Thanks for the info.

I'll give it a try, using the same powder for both.

Cumberland

 

[roundball]

I am merely asking if there are are folks here who agree with the statement.

I disagree with the statement.

From the perspective of wanting the fastest possible ignition speed in a Flintlock, I use 4F priming powder, packaged and sold for that purpose.

Its a well established industry standard that smaller / finer powder granulations "burn faster" than larger granulations, whether or not some people can detect it while shooting.

 

[Jim Martin]

Roundball,

Just a thought, have you ever tried using the "same" powder? If so, were you able to detect any difference?
Just asking, so I can learn.

Thanks, Cumberland

 

[Stumpkiller]

Pletch is the one who might have held a high speed camera to different granulations in otherwise identical locks. I don't recall offhand.

Personally, I have been using the same granulation for prime & main since I got a Bess in 1989 and from there used the same in rifles as well. Makes life easier.

 

[tg]

Not directing this at anyone but sometimes if foks believe that someting is so, they will detect such in their experience be it so or not, this is a fact of human nature

 

[Jim Martin]

Good words.

That's why it is so great to have a forum like this so we can learn from each other.
"Iron sharpens Iron"

Cumberland

 

[Blackpowdersmoke]

I recently tried ffg as a prime powder while shooting a used, but new to me flintlock. I didn't fire a lot of shots with it, maybe a dozen and a half. I didn't notice any difference in speed. However, I did notice that I didn't get so much of that greasy residue in the pan and on the frizzen as I do with 4F. I intend to experiment more with this and determine which works best for me. The day we were shooting was very humid, and I seemed to be having trouble with the 4F so I tried the 2F I was loading with on a whim. I think it worked better, but it may have been because of the high humidity that the 2F didn't gather as much moisture from the air as the 4F did. :idunno: ...BPS

 

[rabjr]

Like many others, I've always used 3F for prime which gave me fast ignition. Never saw a need for 4F especially for hunting. I did however get a can of 4F recently to use for range work and to be honest, I can't see any difference between that and the 3F I was using.

 

[tg]

I have always thought that 4f draws moisture nmore than the others I think it is not coated with graphite if I recall, here in nw Oregon mositure is real high during hunting season, in damp foggy,drizzly weather I used to have to dump,wipe and change powder a lot with 4f not so with 3f and I cannot tell any difference in the time of ignition, it is a matter of choice as many like the 4f over the others, no right or wrong as which is "best"

 

[paulvallandigham]

There is a difference between ignition time, and burn rate. Mr.Alexander is correct about ignition time. However, he is NOT talking about BURN RATE.

Black Powder burns from the outside IN. The smaller the Granule size, the faster the granule is consumed; conversely, the larger the granule size is, the slower it is consumed. The Smaller Granule size powder like Nul B, and 4Fg priming powder burn FASTER because of this characteristic. THE FASTER THE POWDER BURNS, the more heat is raised QUICKLY next to the Touch hole, and its the HEAT, not the flame, that ignites the powder inside the barrel of a flintlock.

The other factor in choosing to use small grained Priming powders, such as FFFFg, or Nul B, or 7Fg powder, etc. is how long they remain dry in an open pan of a flintlock, in various conditions of relative humidity. We KNOW that its the BP residue that absorbs moisture from the air, and not the powder itself. But, once the moisture soaks into even the smallest amount of residue left in the pan, it fouls the powder fairly quickly.

For that reason, hunters often choose to use the coarser granule sized powders- such as what they are using in the barrel for the main charge-- as their priming powder, too. The Coarser the granules, the slower each granule absorbs water from residue. IN hunting conditions, its much more difficult for the shooter to notice small differences in the time it takes to ignite his main charge- its measured in milliseconds.

What the hunter wants, and needs, is RELIABILITY of Ignition of the main charge in the field, regardless of how long the powder has been exposed to air, moisture, etc. before he fires his gun.

Target shooters, on the other hand, expect to shoot their guns within a few seconds of when they prime the pan. It is the target shooters who choose to use the faster BURNING powders to prime their pans, to speed ignition of the main charge in the barrel.

Think about it. If you are looking down your sights at a small target on the range, your gun rested on a stable bench platform, using a formal fore-end rest, and probably sand bags at the butt of the stock to help stabilize the gun's movements, you can see every time your sight picture changes with each heart beat in your chest. Any movement of your front sight in relation to that target is quickly noticed. For this kind of shooting, having the fastest burning powder in your flash pan only makes sense.

Powder Ignition is a function of its Flashpoint Temperature, ie. the temperature at which any substance ignites. All Black Powders, regardless of granular size, are composed of the same compounds of elements. They all have that same Flashpoint Temperature.

That temperature is only relevant, however, if you compare it to the Flash point temperatures of Other kinds of powder, such as Pyrodex, 777, etc. These other substitute powders all have IGNITION temperatures that are much HIGHER than that of Black Powder.

The Subs are harder to ignite than is black powder, and therefore are NOT recommended for use in Flintlocks, nor as flash powder. You can waste your time and money testing this fact, or you can believe the testimonials of hundreds of other flintlock shooters who have tried these powders in their guns, and found BP much better. There is even published data from the companies that make these substitute powders listing their Flash Points, which you can compare to that of Black Powder. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Roundball,
Just a thought, have you ever tried using the "same" powder? If so, were you able to detect any difference?
Just asking, so I can learn.
Thanks, Cumberland

I have personally switched back and forth between priming with 4F and 3F at the range, right there at the same time with everything else being equal and I could tell a difference.
NOTE: It doesn't matter to me what you or anyone else uses...not trying to get to use anything...I simply answered your question about the guys statement.

It is simply a fact that smaller/finer granulations of BP burn at faster rates than larger/coarser granulations. If they didn't, there wouldn't be much point in going to all the manufacturing trouble of screening out the different size granulations, and packaging them separately for different purposes.
IE: Priming Powder = 4F, and smaller / finer sizes like 5F and 7F are even faster, used for things like fireworks, old fashioned photography, etc.

My personal philosphy is I'm not interested in using something because it might be simpler or easier...if that was the case I'd use a .30-30. I want the most speed available for my Flintlock ignition...and 4F is faster than 3F is faster than 2F...end of discussion for me.

There are some who have staked themselves out in the position that "there is no difference" and then continue to defend that position in spite of proof to the contrary...raising all sorts of problems about using 4F for hunting, etc.
Reality is that 4F works perfectly for hunting and hasn't kept me from punching several deer tags every year since I've been using Flintlocks, and that includes intentionally hunting them in the rain a couple times.

Discussions are good as long as they're rooted in fact...but when facts start to get tinkered with, value goes south in a hurry.
:wink:

 

[BrownBear]

Makes life easier.

I do about 99% of my shooting away from the range, so that's large bonus points for me.