New here, need some advice.

[user 58311]

Hello this is my first post. Just recently my B.I.L. gifted me a smoothbore. It was built by his best friend that has since passed. He was getting ready to have a heart valve replaced and I think he was afraid he wouldn't survive it, so he told me he wanted me to have this gun. I was thrilled and since I knew the builder also, I told my B.I.L. I would kill my first turkey this year with it in honor of his buddy. Anyhow I ordered some shooting supplies from TOTW since I had never owned a smoothbore. I researched on this forum about the Skychief load and started shooting. The gun shot low and left so I shot a lot to learn the gun. In all I fired it 42 times. Final load was 65gr 3F, 1 1/8 of 7 1/2 loaded Skychief way. I decided 25 yds would be my max range. My problem is that after about 10 shots I started
getting misfires. New flint made little difference. Noticed frizzen was getting chewed up pretty good. About shot 25 I pulled off the frizzen and sanded it up some. Then about shot 35 I noticed the barrel was not afixed to the stock in front. The solder had come loose on the front two. So I black taped the barrel to the stock at the ramrod thimbles and continued to shoot. Finally the gun would not spark at all, so I napped the flint and it fired. I stopped because season was the next morning and I hoped it would go off one more time. It did go off and I harvested a super jake at 20 yds. Now I need to get the gun back in good shooting order. I assume I can reharden the frizzen to correct misfires, but the barrel seems to be nailed the to stock at the tang. What is the best way to get barrel off. Also is it common for the solder to give out? Can you not shoot a lot with these guns or was it just a bad solder. I have enjoyed shooting this gun and plan to start using it for all my shot gunning. I appreciate all the help in advance.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK so the barrel likely isn't nailed to the stock at the tang. The tang bolt goes from the trigger guard, up and into a threaded hole in the tang. One of the screws in the trigger guard needs to be removed to release the tang. That's a common method of doing the tang on trade guns. It's likely the bolt just forward of the bow of the trigger guard.

You likely cannot re-harden your frizzen. That takes some specific technique, and unlike Yahoos you find on YouTube who tell you they did it (they only "think" they did it), it cannot be done with leather, a campfire, and a steel can. You will want somebody who knows how to do them to harden the frizzen, and it may also need some carbon.

As for the barrel coming loose, it was likely the wrong solder, and it simply fractured and came free. It may be re-soldered, but a good quality gunsmithing silver solder would be what is needed.

After it gets overhauled, you may want to look at the angle of impact of your flint upon the face of the frizzen. The cock may be adjusted OR there are some little things the shooter can do to cant the edge of the flint downward a few degrees to mitigate the problem.
LD

 

[Crow#21957]

Not to hi Jack but what you said Dave. The cock can be adjusted,,,HOW,,, please I'm trying to learn all I can. I know about flipping the flint but not adjusting the cock. Thanks

 

[user 58311]

Thank you it is the screw in front. It was at such a severe angle I assumed it was not into the tang. It took all of turning it to verify. I'm not as smart as I used to be. Do you know if the Log Cabin Shop can properly harden a frizzen? And is there a way to identify the lock to maybe get a new one. I think the gun was built about 35 years ago. I'm going to take it apart tomorrow I'm sure I'll have more questions. Thanks again.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Find a blacksmith if you really want to case harden the frizzen. He'll likely use a product called Kaseknit. Most likely yours is made out of a low carbon steel and cannot be hardened by heating and quenching. There are some smiths out there who will swear by different formulations of "superquench", but I never took much stock in it. If you want hard steel, make it out of steel with a high carbon content so you can harden and temper it.

It'd be much cheaper and simpler to just order a new frizzen if you can find one... or even make a new one from a higher carbon alloy. They do eventually wear out.

Silver soldering is not for the faint of heart. Hire a gunsmith to do it and be prepared for possibly refinishing the gun after it has been re-soldered. This is something I have never attempted, but I have seen the results afterwards.

I am a big fan of JB Weld for such things, so long as high heat is not an issue, you can do all kinds of repairs with that stuff. Twenty years ago or so, I cut off the corner of a silver bar and glued it to the front of a Pietta 1860 Army replica revolver with JB Weld. Then I filed the sight down and shaped the point where I wanted it. Sight is still in place after all these years and many shots fired. Never tried to glue an underlug to a barrel though, so your mileage may vary.

There is lots of black magic in flintlocks, and even if you do everything right, things can still go wrong. This is one of the reasons that caplocks were developed. Also one of the reasons that mine stays on the wall more than the other guns do.

 

[user 58311]

Got the gun apart. The builder engraved on bottom of barrel Jan. 80 gun #9. I'm guessing I won't be able to find a new frizzen then since it is 43 years old. All 3 barrel tangs were pulled from barrel. The only thing holding it to the stock was the tang screw and the middle lock screw. Is it possible that 65 grs 3F and 1 1/8 oz. of shot is too heavy a load and that's what cause it to break?

 

[Sidney Smith]

I've got a lock very similar to yours. I was having ignition issues as well. Turned out the frizzen where it gets screwed to the lock was a bit narrow. I used a caliper to measure it, and the lock and I found about a hundreth of an inch difference, thus making it loose. No amount of tightening the frizzen screw helped alleviate the issue. What it caused was the flint would strike the frizzen and there wasn't enough tension on the frizzen to allow the flint to get a good enough bite. It slid more down the frizzen than scrape it's way down. How I cured the problem was to put the lock in my 12 ton press, and gave it just enough pressure to press the one ear if you will, of the lock closer to the other side. It was just enough to tighten up the frizzen. Problem solved. Sparks consistently now every time.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Perhaps sole the frizzen, if one cannot be found. Looking at the pic of the cock with the flint in it seems to me there's a hump on the front of the top flat of flint, try putting a small wooden sliver under the back of the flint to change the front angle more downwards. Or get a new flint that's pretty flat on top. I would wager the flint in the cock now is striking square on the frizzen face and not allowing it to engage the frizzen properly .Looking at the pic of the frizzen face you can see different striking points the top most one looks pretty high to me, and seems to be a straight on hit and I would bet its from the flint set up now in the cock, if my gun once the barrel situation was properly fixed, I would try these things first. Not to upset anyone but I would stay away from the glue it suggestion, these are weapons and not model cars. Do it right the first time and forget about it. Go slow do one change at a time and don't cut corners.

 

[user 58311]

I checked mine and there is only .015 gap but it does visually look like a lot of slop side to side. I will tighten the gap and try that. Thanks for the input.

 

[user 58311]

I have tried several flints. Even turned one over. The gun had a small 9/16 wide by 3/4 long flint in it when I got it. That looked really wrong. TOTW says a Trade rifle should use a #7 flint but a #6 fits better. Thats what I use in the Chambers York rifle I built. Is there a diagram that gives the proper geometry of flint to frizzen that I can use as a guide? Well I'm gonna sleep on it. I'll be back on tomorrow for anymore advise. Thanks.

 

[rich pierce]

Almost every day here someone has an ignition problem with a flintlock and they and most others decide the frizzen needs re-hardening. Then most or all decide that the frizzen lacks sufficient carbon to be re-hardened and tempered. Then soling or case-hardening with a case-hardening compound is recommended.

This is treatment without diagnosis.

All frizzens gouge somewhat.

Most frizzens are high carbon steel through and through.

I see nobody asking if the frizzen is hard. TEST THE FRIZZEN FOR HARDNESS COMPARED TO A FRIZZEN ON A SPARKY LOCK. Please. Test it with a fine small file. It should skate, not file the frizzen.

Next:
A. It’s hard as another frizzen on a sparky lock. Conclusion: the frizzen hardness is not the problem.

B. It is not as hard as a frizzen on a sparky lock.
1) send it to Cabin Creek and let them figure it out.
2) decide you can fix anything that’s new to you.
a. Give it the spark test on a grinder. Learn about spark patterns of high carbon steel. Compare spark pattern to a file and a common nail.
a1. It has a lot of carbon but isn’t sparking. In this case I try re-hardening and I TEST IT for hardness before tempering and reinstalling and seeing how it performs. I temper the toe to a softer temper to make sure it does not crack.
a2. Its spark pattern on the grinder isn’t encouraging me that it has enough carbon to successfully re-harden and temper. Now we have only 2 viable options besides replacement. One is to do charcoal pack case hardening for an hour. You could lose your sight or use of your hands or change the appearance of your face if you play around with this with no experience. It’s not a topic to teach easily and safely on a forum. Alternatively you could add a thin high carbon sole but this is not trivial. It’s not just “JB Weld a piece of saw blade on there!”

Thin case hardening with compounds like Kasenit has many good applications. Frizzens are not.

 

[Rob M.]

Got the gun apart. The builder engraved on bottom of barrel Jan. 80 gun #9. I'm guessing I won't be able to find a new frizzen then since it is 43 years old. All 3 barrel tangs were pulled from barrel. The only thing holding it to the stock was the tang screw and the middle lock screw. Is it possible that 65 grs 3F and 1 1/8 oz. of shot is too heavy a load and that's what cause it to break?

No bud , charge and recoil had nothing to do with the barrel lugs coming off....just a poor soldering job . Sorry your having such bad luck . Love the looks of your trade gun . I'm a trade gun junky , just love em ! Gonna read the rest of this thread ..... PLEASE dont JB Weld anything on that gun !!

 

[LSLibelo]

Welcome from California.

 

[dracer]

welcome to the forum

 

[Grenadier1758]

@flowj, I agree with @rich pierce's suggestion.

1. Determine if the frizzen is hard.
The Sitting Fox in a Circle is the North Star West logo which is often copied. Remove the lock and look for internal stampings. Yours is probably a kit and one of the early kit guns so it may have a Lott lock (although I am not seeing the Lott stamping on the lock plate). At that time, the Lott lock was about the only lock that was suitable for a North West Trade Gun and it was notorious for its poor performance. The frizzen may well have the thin case hardening worn off.

2. My suggestion is to send the lock off to Cabin Creek and have Brad Emig put it to rights. The Log Cabin Shop is now the manufacturer of the Davis locks and should be able to rework your lock.

3. Silver solder the under lugs back on the barrel. You may have to drill for new pin holes through the lugs.

4. When you reinstall the flint, use a wooden matchstick or piece of leather thong to place under the rear of the flint to angle the leading edge of the flint to scrape the frizzen rather than bash it.

5. Keep working with us to get that trade gun functioning as it should.

 

[Sidney Smith]

I wouldn't even mess around with shimming flints etc. Flints are cheap enough to simply toss any that are not flat and just install a fresh one. Same with knapping when they get dull. If somebody is that cheap, then it's time to take up cross stitch.

 

[BoomStick]

If the gun was shooting well for the first 30 or so shots, I would think it's getting heavy fouling in/around the vent and on the flint.
Something mechanical, like daffy lock geometry or a soft frizzen would be a problem from the start and not likely to change after such a small number of shots. If you do send the lock out, as others have suggested, Brad Emig at Cabin Creek will get it dialed in for you.

 

[flntlokr]

Hello this is my first post. Just recently my B.I.L. gifted me a smoothbore. It was built by his best friend that has since passed. He was getting ready to have a heart valve replaced and I think he was afraid he wouldn't survive it, so he told me he wanted me to have this gun. I was thrilled and since I knew the builder also, I told my B.I.L. I would kill my first turkey this year with it in honor of his buddy. Anyhow I ordered some shooting supplies from TOTW since I had never owned a smoothbore. I researched on this forum about the Skychief load and started shooting. The gun shot low and left so I shot a lot to learn the gun. In all I fired it 42 times. Final load was 65gr 3F, 1 1/8 of 7 1/2 loaded Skychief way. I decided 25 yds would be my max range. My problem is that after about 10 shots I started
getting misfires. New flint made little difference. Noticed frizzen was getting chewed up pretty good. About shot 25 I pulled off the frizzen and sanded it up some. Then about shot 35 I noticed the barrel was not afixed to the stock in front. The solder had come loose on the front two. So I black taped the barrel to the stock at the ramrod thimbles and continued to shoot. Finally the gun would not spark at all, so I napped the flint and it fired. I stopped because season was the next morning and I hoped it would go off one more time. It did go off and I harvested a super jake at 20 yds. Now I need to get the gun back in good shooting order. I assume I can reharden the frizzen to correct misfires, but the barrel seems to be nailed the to stock at the tang. What is the best way to get barrel off. Also is it common for the solder to give out? Can you not shoot a lot with these guns or was it just a bad solder. I have enjoyed shooting this gun and plan to start using it for all my shot gunning. I appreciate all the help in advance.View attachment 215299View attachment 215300View attachment 215301View attachment 215302View attachment 215303View attachment 215304

You can solder the lugs back on with regular high-tin solder and a regular propane torch; no need for silver solder. Not a bad idea to elongate the hole horizontally a few thous to allow for expansion/contraction of the wood and barrel. You ought to be able to re-harden the frizzen with a caseinite treatment if your torch can get it hot enough. That looks like a nicely built gun. Congratulations on acquiring it. You can indeed shoot ball from it with the same powder load.

 

[user 58311]

Boomstick, Misfires started about 10 shots in. Gun was swabbed and cleaned completely between shots including touch hole.
Grenadier1758, I don't think it was a kit gun. I know the walnut for the stock came off his wifes family farm. There are no marking on the lock other than the sitting fox. It appears to be the same on the barrel. There are 2 other stamps on the barrel I have included pics.

 

[BoomStick]

Boomstick, Misfires started about 10 shots in. Gun was swabbed and cleaned completely between shots including touch hole.

That's helpful info. When I started with my 20-gauge smoothbore I mistakenly swabbed it too often (about every 5 shots). Swabbing with a damp patch can push crud onto the face of the breech. If it's an oily patch the stuff can harden, and overly wet patches can dampen the main charge. My first couple of trips to the range were quite miserable as I struggled more with ignition and I couldn't focus on load development.
After some practice and reading here, I found with loose shot (sky chief or not) swabbing was not necessary at all. It did not affect loading or my shot pattern, and ignition was better until about the 40-ish shot range, when the vent and lock were getting really dirty. I also found my fowler's lock likes shorter flints than most of my rifles.