Musket replicas with non-drilled vent tubes

[bjarard]

Everyone I know are getting rid of their Indian muskets and getting Pedersolis...and are much happier for it. Their words.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Hm, I sold my Pedersoli to buy a Loyalist Arms Long Land Pattern. The Pedersoli was the wrong musket for my F&I interpretation.

 

[TFoley]

I have seen this with a Canadian Company and it allows them to sell "Replica" non-firing pieces.

Same here in UK.

 

[MGA]

What about the safety of an unproof tested barrel? I would never shoot a barrel that is not meant to shoot.

 

[bjarard]

Look at the geometry issues. Peder on top, Loyalist BB on bottom. This is their full release position. I had to grind and file to get the cock to fall into the correct position to spark. Massive misfires from this musket...not to mention replacing springs that were more suited for automotive use.

 

[FlinterNick]

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Look at the geometry issues. Peder on top, Loyalist BB on bottom. This is their full release position. I had to grind and file to get the cock to fall into the correct position to spark. Massive misfires from this musket...not to mention replacing springs that were more suited for automotive use.

The locks are problematic, I agree.

The shape of the castings looks more like a Belgian trade gun than an actual Brown Bess musket.

however, I will say that the pedersoli Grice Lock, while is a very nice lock, isn’t geometrically accurate compared to its intended copy of a 1755 Lock. The lock is undersized in width and length by a few MM. The engravings are not a match at all and the lock was overalls much larger.

the best reproduction lock casting I’ve ever seen of a Brown Bess was by EJ Blackely and Reeves Ghoring, but good luck find those lying around.

Blackly you might as well forget about him even following up on an order.

 

[FlinterNick]

If you’re going to purchase an Indian made dealer, do it from a dealer that will sell them as firearms. At least your getting a gun that is an intended gun.

I’d go to Loyalist arms of Canada, stay away from MiddlEssex Trading.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Not all of the locks from Loyalist have the same geometry issues. This is a picture of my Long Land Pattern Lock (unbridled frizzen). The flash guard obscures the flint location in the full release position, but mine is a reliable sparker and will consistently fire the charge.

 

[FlinterNick]

Not all of the locks from Loyalist have the same geometry issues. This is a picture of my Long Land Pattern Lock (unbridled frizzen). The flash guard obscures the flint location in the full release position, but mine is a reliable sparker and will consistently fire the charge.

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Agree here 100% Loyalist does a nice job.

Where the Indian made guns really fit the reinactment gap is F&I war or long land series muskets.

of course the only other way you can get your hands on a long land is with a customized kit gun, which I’m an advocate of, but wouldn’t tell anyone to go that route unless they’re ready for the costs with it.

Loyalist does a really nice job on getting the guns ready for use, and they won’t sell any that they consider defective too

 

[Rudyard]

There You go Loyalist Arms allway's did sell a good product and have a good trading ethic..
Rudyard

 

[Irishmusket]

What about the safety of an unproof tested barrel? I would never shoot a barrel that is not meant to shoot.

Everyone I know are getting rid of their Indian muskets and getting Pedersolis...and are much happier for it. Their words.

 

[Irishmusket]

You probably do not know to many people.I know quite a bit about the various repro Brown Bess’s that have been offered to the public Belgian Japanese Italian and Indian Belgian proofed barrels are without question by far the safest Liege Proof standards for black powder barrels are the strongest by far Japanese are good Birmingham English good Spanish marginal Italian good .In the case of Indian gun barrels if you actually been truly around this stuff is on the bottom of the barrel .It has who made it his license number Official Indian government the date of that said license date and his address and type of STEEL and yes they are made of carbon steel and yes the barrel maker is held responsible for the barrels he makes under Indian law By putting his license number and name on it he say it is in fact a gun barrel .Indian muskets are sold heavily in Europe those Countries require proofing in their proof houses that includes guns made Japan China theUSA etc. must by law be proofed say England Burmingham proof Belgium Liege proof house and so on Many Indian muskets are sold to actual shooters in Europe and pass proof to standards of that country The Indian muskts are as safe to shoot as any other musket including the overrated and over priced Pedersolis

 

[TFoley]

My loads are so hot, my gun is proofed each time I fire it. Just kidding. Just a joke. Not really. Smiley face.

I understand perfectly, Sir.

It's the same with my live-steam locomotives - every time I fire them up, the boiler is tested, the safety valves are tested and the pressure and water gauges are tested....the little blue loco is H0 scale, just for comparison.

 

[cal.43]

a real steam loco has to been inspected and proofed in Germany every 8 Years by an professional tester if it would run, extreme expensive.
Every shotable gun has to be proofed here, a non proofed gun is illegal and that´s a good thing.
Those indian make replica comes here as non shooter or proofed as shooter, if proofed it´s ok.
Those replicas can be junk but not all.

 

[FlinterNick]

You probably do not know to many people.I know quite a bit about the various repro Brown Bess’s that have been offered to the public Belgian Japanese Italian and Indian Belgian proofed barrels are without question by far the safest Liege Proof standards for black powder barrels are the strongest by far Japanese are good Birmingham English good Spanish marginal Italian good .In the case of Indian gun barrels if you actually been truly around this stuff is on the bottom of the barrel .It has who made it his license number Official Indian government the date of that said license date and his address and type of STEEL and yes they are made of carbon steel and yes the barrel maker is held responsible for the barrels he makes under Indian law By putting his license number and name on it he say it is in fact a gun barrel .Indian muskets are sold heavily in Europe those Countries require proofing in their proof houses that includes guns made Japan China theUSA etc. must by law be proofed say England Burmingham proof Belgium Liege proof house and so on Many Indian muskets are sold to actual shooters in Europe and pass proof to standards of that country The Indian muskts are as safe to shoot as any other musket including the overrated and over priced Pedersolis

I don’t believe that India has any such firearms regulations for the replica’s they produce. They are not required to use a certain carbon steel as they are not sold as weapons. They are purchased in supply as replicas and refurbished by various vendors as firearms and required to be proofed by the governing authority that licenses them their fire arms dealers In Europe and Asia.

As far as the steel they use, it’s absolutely not the same grade of steel used by actual firearms dealers such as Armi Sport or Pedersoli. The term Carbon Steel can mean almost anything, from basic mild 1015 steel To a Alloy of steels To recycled carbon steels. India is well known for using recycled steels in many if not most of their manufacturing. I use tools made by a German Company called proxxon, these are made with Indian Steel and I have almost always have gears for my lathes and mills case hardened by a machine shop Because they wear down quickly and chip, if I don’t.

As far as being of proof quality, I suppose that’s all that matters For gun use and safety, and I would own an Indian made gun, but I wouldn’t go as far as comparing them to a pedersoli or armi sport barrel that is ‘overpriced’. I‘m in the market for a loyaist arms 1728 Charleville For my reenactment group, however I woudlnt’ take it to the range with 20 rounds buck and ball and 140 grains of 2F powder. The problem with Indian made guns isn’t so much their steels, its the owner/user of them that doesn’t take proper care and precaution when using them. I knew someone who had an Indian made bess burst at the breech, he of course blamed it on the gunmaker but we all knew the guy never cleaned his guns and loaded them with 120 grains of 3F.

At the end of the day an Indian made barrel is never going to be of par quality with with them. Personally I wouldn’t even consider them competitors.

 

[Capnball]

Here are some links
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/barrel-failure-mystery-solved-an-interesting-theory.83853/
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/india-made-lorenz-explodes-at-bga-gettysburg.86134/
There are others

Good reading!
Always like getting smarter!
Neil

 

[Sidney Smith]

I understand perfectly, Sir.

It's the same with my live-steam locomotives - every time I fire them up, the boiler is tested, the safety valves are tested and the pressure and water gauges are tested....the little blue loco is H0 scale, just for comparison.

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Im no rail fan, but I must say I am fascinated by those big live steam engines. I mean the guys look a little silly riding them around, but I can relate as to why theyre interested in them.

Im the same way with those English narrow boats. Fascinating to watch them.

 

[Irishmusket]

I would not be shooting 120 grain charge in any BrownBess or any french1728 that load with modern black powder goex etc the standard load according to Pedersoli For the brownbess is75 /80 gains fg or ffg never fffg not 120 or 140 the loads you have quoted are over loads and could result in failure .I own several Pedersoli Brown bess muskets love em they are modern cnc product consistent quality they are over priced how ever and resale value about half on a good day Believe me I have been in the Business a long time and I have been successful. I would also make note the steel used in the Indian barrels is BS5970 no.080M40 A proof test I conducted on one of thier long land pattern barrels was conducted 4 years ago to see just how much one these barrel would take I am set up to proof barrels do it on a regular basis .The Indian barrel held up with 200 grains ffg and two balls no change in measurements or the breech plug that is almost more than 2 and a half times the safe standard service charge of a Brown Bess and its still ok still have that musket still in service .a normal proof 150 gains which is double service load for a Brown Bess a load of 140 grains buck and Ball is near or at proof of the musket not a wise decision

 

[FlinterNick]

I would not be shooting 120 grain charge in any BrownBess or any french1728 that load with modern black powder goex etc the standard load according to Pedersoli For the brownbess is75 /80 gains fg or ffg never fffg not 120 or 140 the loads you have quoted are over loads and could result in failure .I own several Pedersoli Brown bess muskets love em they are modern cnc product consistent quality they are over priced how ever and resale value about half on a good day Believe me I have been in the Business a long time and I have been successful. I would also make note the steel used in the Indian barrels is BS5970 no.080M40 A proof test I conducted on one of thier long land pattern barrels was conducted 4 years ago to see just how much one these barrel would take I am set up to proof barrels do it on a regular basis .The Indian barrel held up with 200 grains ffg and two balls no change in measurements or the breech plug that is almost more than 2 and a half times the safe standard service charge of a Brown Bess and its still ok still have that musket still in service .a normal proof 150 gains which is double service load for a Brown Bess a load of 140 grains buck and Ball is near or at proof of the musket not a wise decision

Indian made muskets are not made according to any specific standards. Some are done very poorly with breech plugs that are not deep enough or threaded correctly. Not all are made of the same steel too that you mentioned, the ones from Loylist Arms from what I’m told tend to use the best quality steel for guns. Some of the other distributors of Indian made arms just seem to be made of lesser quality materials. I’ve seen some from Middlesex that look like they were made at IKEA put together with glues and mastics And the barrels are either plugged too short or too long or sometime even welded closed.

Regarding the loads, those are not the loads I use. I personally never go over 100 grains of 2F, but my usual cartridge is 70-80 grains. I’ve found that more powder does nothing for accuracy. As for the overloaders, reinactors will be reinactors.

 

[Irishmusket]

Indian made muskets are not made according to any specific standards. Some are done very poorly with breech plugs that are not deep enough or threaded correctly. Not all are made of the same steel too that you mentioned, the ones from Loylist Arms from what I’m told tend to use the best quality steel for guns. Some of the other distributors of Indian made arms just seem to be made of lesser quality materials. I’ve seen some from Middlesex that look like they were made at IKEA put together with glues and mastics And the barrels are either plugged too short or too long or sometime even welded closed.

Regarding the loads, those are not the loads I use. I personally never go over 100 grains of 2F, but my usual cartridge is 70-80 grains. I’ve found that more powder does nothing for accuracy. As for the overloaders, reinactors will be reinactors.

Most of the barrels I have worked on were from the same barrel maker that has been a lot over the years the matchlocks all of the ones that available are well breeched and very good muskets have no issues venting them the locks are simple and reliable and traditional and safe to shoot .You are some what right about the Flintlock s they can be rough around the edges locks may be okhalf the time they need to be seriously reworked burrs poor fitting frizzens sears hanging up poor spark in other words not just venting them we often get them they need hours of shop work when their straightened out the are very good muskets as far as the barrels go They are good a lot better then the Spanish manure that came over 70s