Military Heritage India-made Fusil de Chasse

[Commodore Swab]

Well you did call me uneducated and a self proclaimed expert…. Just a few to start.

And I respectfully hope that you move on from the Indian guns into a better practice.

Commodore Swab is very insulting. It comes across as petulant and whiny. Mike Brooks is insulting also, but he does it with class. It is rather entertaining.

You’ve been wildly insulting. Nick pointed out one place where you were insulting. There were others. Your comments and this here, lead me to believe that you’re a troll just out to cause trouble. Maybe not. L

I don’t hide behind a forum name. We see that you do.

It is not my intention to be insulting which is why I have asked where I have insulted anybody. The closest is Nick with what he had to say but it is difficult to apologize or explain without some context. My argument has been that India has no real competition and that they are functional pieces. My argument has also been that in general when there is crossover and they compare they are far cheaper and lower quality than what is available in Italy or domestically. I have also said that where the india guns come from there are many different builders and importers and it is unfair to lump them all into the same category. Just as it would be unfair to people here to assume that all long rifle builders here were of the same class. As I have said apples to oranges and saying that something is different and doesnt compare shouldn't insult anyone. A fusil is another good example true there are fusils out there being made domestic but I challenge you to find a domestic pre 1700 fusil that isnt a hand built piece from TRS. Commercially availble domestic locks are just too modern (see back on topic . . .) whereas the military heritage fusil IS correct in lock shape and build for a much earlier time period. If you are waiting for a early quality built domestic fusil it could be a very very long wait.

In regard to what Nick has claimed that I have i called him "uneducated and a self proclaimed expert" without being able to reference it is difficult to defend so let me assume he is and explain how that can be true. As mike says . . .

I just tell it like it is. Most folks can't deal with the truth.

I did state "Comments like this illustrate your lack of knowledge. Assuming dozens of different locks all have bad geometry is foolish. Some are good others poor"

When you claim to work on " I’ve worked on over 30 of them, and put the breaks on it because the time cost is not worth it to me." although you first say "For a year or two i worked on over 20 of them" it gets confusing. Knowing that of the hundreds that annually pass thru every importers doors the ones that are being worked on are the most problematic from a selection of different builders from different (India) companies. To use numbers this small which may in honesty represent 20-30 different people building different guns would be comparable to assuming that every gunsmith in America builds the exact same quality. When you deal with 60 guns of the same model from the same business and can see the differences in the build of those same guns and how their employees have built them slightly different but along the same pattern. Based on numbers alone and what Nick has claimed to have worked on I think it is an uneducated opinion. As far as self proclaimed expert based on limited experience to make claims like

"Most Indian barrels I’ve seen owned by reinactors are in extremely poor condition, so poor that the breech plugs can be turned off the barrel by HAND !"

"They’re not breeched appropriately at all, there is almost no shoulder between the face of the breech plug and the bore, none at all and the breech is flanged"

"The steel is less than adequate for a flintlock, i know that India is heavily involved in recycled steels from ship yards, so its hard to say what you’re working with."

"almost all Indian locks I’ve worked on have absolutely no geometric placement of the parts, they’re simply slapped together."

"Tumbler; the tumblers are rough mill cut and is too small with very short placement of the tumbler notches, the lack of tumbler size has justified their need to make a sear with a very long nose to engage the tumbler, causing an inadequate throw."

It goes on and on . . .After all this explaining and shown how the poor geometry was fixed and proved to be fixed by this picture which to me clearly demonstrated the geometry is not fixed as the sparks are being delivered to the wrong location I have made the assumption that he is inexperienced. This is how I see it

I do not resort to name calling, I do not believe I have insulted anyones work other than stating that there is still a geometry problem on the gun that nick demonstrated he repaired. If I have insulted anyone PLEASE let me know so I can explain what I meant in context as it is not my intention.

To Nick, if you would like an apology it isn't a problem but I hope I have explained how you might have given me the wrong impression.

 

[Commodore Swab]

He'll, I've been in business doing this full time since 1996. I make no secret of who I am. I have always been overwhelmed with work. The truth always works.

"Swab" is a nickname I picked up decades ago. I run in different circles so it shouldn't be a surprise we havent crossed paths in person or in weaponry. This site is a muzzle loading site (lets not start a discussion on how a breech loading cannon is a muzzle loader) so there is some overlap. More people know my work as "one of swab's guns" or "swab worked on that" than my name. I keep the name for that. As I have kept the name and don't sell under my name knowing it should be pointless.

Have I insulted you or your work anywhere? Some are saying I have and it has not been my intention, IF I have I would like to correct myself as I believe people can have a discussion without it degrading to the point of name calling.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

"Swab" is a nickname I picked up decades ago. I run in different circles so it shouldn't be a surprise we havent crossed paths in person or in weaponry. This site is a muzzle loading site (lets not start a discussion on how a breech loading cannon is a muzzle loader) so there is some overlap. More people know my work as "one of swab's guns" or "swab worked on that" than my name. I keep the name for that. As I have kept the name and don't sell under my name knowing it should be pointless.

Have I insulted you or your work anywhere? Some are saying I have and it has not been my intention, IF I have I would like to correct myself as I believe people can have a discussion without it degrading to the point of name calling.

You haven't insulted me. I'm all good. I suspect you're out east somewhere. I haven't been out east since 2000 so we probably haven't crossed paths.
You seem to have some great talent. You should use it making higher end stuff, it pays much better. I only suggest this from 43 years of experience making exclusively flintlock guns. Do what you want, but having money is more fun than not.
In fact if I had to do it all over again I'd be a heavy machine operator and would have stayed away from muzzleloaders completely.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I've thought about the higher end stuff but my passion is more for the variety and just uniqueness of the pre 1700 era. Before things were becoming standardized. You could take a Danish, English, French, Spanish, Dutch gun hang them on a wall and they would be VASTLY different in lock and shape. Fast forward 50-100 years and they have all adopted the general same shape and French lock. It gives me pleasure to pass out weaponry that people enjoy and can use often getting started. Many times that is reworking an India gun to make it reliable and enjoyable. It is a good feeling when someone has a piece they are totally frustrated with and you can do some minor work making it spark and fire for them or you see someone again a couple years later and they are gushing about how it was damp and raining and the gun they got from you kept firing when others wernt. It's seeing the joy in people that is in itself rewarding. Very rarely as you well know do people stop at owning a single piece so if you treat them well they come back. I wish I had a source other than TRS where I could find parts, as it stands I have what I consider to be a rather large inventory of their parts (probably 20 different locks) where when someone wants something more unique I won't have to wait for the parts. This time period is more a hobby and what I enjoy, something I have found that with a little work I can "go play" without it costing and sometimes even come home with more than I left with. The future money maker that I am building the foundry for will be cannons. I have the first large one (scratch built) done and ready to dip and cast in bronze. The white one is concrete pulled from the mold for show. As I said, different circles but there is some overlap here.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

So how many pounds of material does your pot have to hold in order to pour a cannon barrel? I help pour with one that will hold 95lbs and that's enough for me! My foundry guy has a furnace that will hold a 500lb pot but it's not hooked up. He has big plans for it....I don't think he'll ever get it going.

 

[Commodore Swab]

These poured solid with a cooling head 250-300 pounds, Ive worked with pouring that much before. I have 2 waxes one is hollow and the other solid so I may have a foundry cast the hollow and insert a steel barrel as was done with this one. We actually cast in 3 different pieces then they were welded together and finished. The barrels were proofed prior to install. Each cast piece with spruing and cooling head was about 250 lbs pour. My personal piece will be a french 8 inch howitzer, Ive started putting out feelers on wheels as well as sketching up the pattern.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

You must be young. My energy level discourages me from any project that makes me sweat that much.

 

[FlinterNick]

It is not my intention to be insulting which is why I have asked where I have insulted anybody. The closest is Nick with what he had to say but it is difficult to apologize or explain without some context. My argument has been that India has no real competition and that they are functional pieces. My argument has also been that in general when there is crossover and they compare they are far cheaper and lower quality than what is available in Italy or domestically. I have also said that where the india guns come from there are many different builders and importers and it is unfair to lump them all into the same category. Just as it would be unfair to people here to assume that all long rifle builders here were of the same class. As I have said apples to oranges and saying that something is different and doesnt compare shouldn't insult anyone. A fusil is another good example true there are fusils out there being made domestic but I challenge you to find a domestic pre 1700 fusil that isnt a hand built piece from TRS. Commercially availble domestic locks are just too modern (see back on topic . . .) whereas the military heritage fusil IS correct in lock shape and build for a much earlier time period. If you are waiting for a early quality built domestic fusil it could be a very very long wait.

In regard to what Nick has claimed that I have i called him "uneducated and a self proclaimed expert" without being able to reference it is difficult to defend so let me assume he is and explain how that can be true. As mike says . . .

I did state "Comments like this illustrate your lack of knowledge. Assuming dozens of different locks all have bad geometry is foolish. Some are good others poor"

When you claim to work on " I’ve worked on over 30 of them, and put the breaks on it because the time cost is not worth it to me." although you first say "For a year or two i worked on over 20 of them" it gets confusing. Knowing that of the hundreds that annually pass thru every importers doors the ones that are being worked on are the most problematic from a selection of different builders from different (India) companies. To use numbers this small which may in honesty represent 20-30 different people building different guns would be comparable to assuming that every gunsmith in America builds the exact same quality. When you deal with 60 guns of the same model from the same business and can see the differences in the build of those same guns and how their employees have built them slightly different but along the same pattern. Based on numbers alone and what Nick has claimed to have worked on I think it is an uneducated opinion. As far as self proclaimed expert based on limited experience to make claims like

"Most Indian barrels I’ve seen owned by reinactors are in extremely poor condition, so poor that the breech plugs can be turned off the barrel by HAND !"

"They’re not breeched appropriately at all, there is almost no shoulder between the face of the breech plug and the bore, none at all and the breech is flanged"

"The steel is less than adequate for a flintlock, i know that India is heavily involved in recycled steels from ship yards, so its hard to say what you’re working with."

"almost all Indian locks I’ve worked on have absolutely no geometric placement of the parts, they’re simply slapped together."

"Tumbler; the tumblers are rough mill cut and is too small with very short placement of the tumbler notches, the lack of tumbler size has justified their need to make a sear with a very long nose to engage the tumbler, causing an inadequate throw."

It goes on and on . . .After all this explaining and shown how the poor geometry was fixed and proved to be fixed by this picture which to me clearly demonstrated the geometry is not fixed as the sparks are being delivered to the wrong location I have made the assumption that he is inexperienced. This is how I see itView attachment 268970

I do not resort to name calling, I do not believe I have insulted anyones work other than stating that there is still a geometry problem on the gun that nick demonstrated he repaired. If I have insulted anyone PLEASE let me know so I can explain what I meant in context as it is not my intention.

To Nick, if you would like an apology it isn't a problem but I hope I have explained how you might have given me the wrong impression.

The sparks are not in the wrong location. They’re over the pan. You keep hijacking my picture to imply I don’t know what I’m doing and now are attempting to say you’re helping correct my issue… that’s called gas lighting, and yes that’s insulting.

That frizzen was case hardened in bone charcoal for 1 hour and tempered … this lock Will spark for years without fail.

Maybe you’re not really understanding that all locks do not spark the same, the sparks need to be over the pan. High or low they need to be over the pan and first and foremost the lock needs to be able to produce a spark.

My name is very well-known, and I secure my reputation by producing very good work.

Take Mike’s advice and and pick better projects you don’t want to have the reputation of a junker. There are plenty of those.

And by the way, I know who you are. You’re not nearly this rude on Facebook, don’t come calling me for parts or my locks. And I’ll also let The Rifle Shoppe know to not send me your stuff.

 

[sturmkatze]

Commodore Swab is very insulting. It comes across as petulant and whiny. Mike Brooks is insulting also, but he does it with class. It is rather entertaining.

Mike Brooks does it because he knows of what he speaks. And he is funny about it. My head would explode if I got as much manure as him.

If these guys like Mike or Nick say something, listen. They know. Commodore fakey, well, we don’t really know who he is. Just someone pretending. If not, let’s have a name. Good lords, it’s a hobby. But you have all the puffy know it alls. That don’t.

It is not my intention to be insulting which is why I have asked where I have insulted anybody. The closest is Nick with what he had to say but it is difficult to apologize or explain without some context. My argument has been that India has no real competition and that they are functional pieces. My argument has also been that in general when there is crossover and they compare they are far cheaper and lower quality than what is available in Italy or domestically. I have also said that where the india guns come from there are many different builders and importers and it is unfair to lump them all into the same category. Just as it would be unfair to people here to assume that all long rifle builders here were of the same class. As I have said apples to oranges and saying that something is different and doesnt compare shouldn't insult anyone. A fusil is another good example true there are fusils out there being made domestic but I challenge you to find a domestic pre 1700 fusil that isnt a hand built piece from TRS. Commercially availble domestic locks are just too modern (see back on topic . . .) whereas the military heritage fusil IS correct in lock shape and build for a much earlier time period. If you are waiting for a early quality built domestic fusil it could be a very very long wait.

In regard to what Nick has claimed that I have i called him "uneducated and a self proclaimed expert" without being able to reference it is difficult to defend so let me assume he is and explain how that can be true. As mike says . . .

I did state "Comments like this illustrate your lack of knowledge. Assuming dozens of different locks all have bad geometry is foolish. Some are good others poor"

When you claim to work on " I’ve worked on over 30 of them, and put the breaks on it because the time cost is not worth it to me." although you first say "For a year or two i worked on over 20 of them" it gets confusing. Knowing that of the hundreds that annually pass thru every importers doors the ones that are being worked on are the most problematic from a selection of different builders from different (India) companies. To use numbers this small which may in honesty represent 20-30 different people building different guns would be comparable to assuming that every gunsmith in America builds the exact same quality. When you deal with 60 guns of the same model from the same business and can see the differences in the build of those same guns and how their employees have built them slightly different but along the same pattern. Based on numbers alone and what Nick has claimed to have worked on I think it is an uneducated opinion. As far as self proclaimed expert based on limited experience to make claims like

"Most Indian barrels I’ve seen owned by reinactors are in extremely poor condition, so poor that the breech plugs can be turned off the barrel by HAND !"

"They’re not breeched appropriately at all, there is almost no shoulder between the face of the breech plug and the bore, none at all and the breech is flanged"

"The steel is less than adequate for a flintlock, i know that India is heavily involved in recycled steels from ship yards, so its hard to say what you’re working with."

"almost all Indian locks I’ve worked on have absolutely no geometric placement of the parts, they’re simply slapped together."

"Tumbler; the tumblers are rough mill cut and is too small with very short placement of the tumbler notches, the lack of tumbler size has justified their need to make a sear with a very long nose to engage the tumbler, causing an inadequate throw."

It goes on and on . . .After all this explaining and shown how the poor geometry was fixed and proved to be fixed by this picture which to me clearly demonstrated the geometry is not fixed as the sparks are being delivered to the wrong location I have made the assumption that he is inexperienced. This is how I see itView attachment 268970

I do not resort to name calling, I do not believe I have insulted anyones work other than stating that there is still a geometry problem on the gun that nick demonstrated he repaired. If I have insulted anyone PLEASE let me know so I can explain what I meant in context as it is not my intention.

To Nick, if you would like an apology it isn't a problem but I hope I have explained how you might have given me the wrong impression.

Good lords. An epistle of bloviation. I bet you’re some movie prop geek.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

In spite of the disagreements, Fellas, just keep on doing what you enjoy best. The toughest critic is ourselves to ourselves...It,s not beneath anyone to cough up those tough word,s of admission. "I dont Know" comes up alot for me. Thats why I come here. To find out. From those with a greater skill set than I. I usually come away with a better understanding of things. Carry on.....but there is no reason to be condescending to someone in answering an honest question.

 

[Zapadach]

So you are basically comparing long rifle prices with India products. Wouldn't it be more correct to compare long rifle prices with India long rifles so you are comparing the same thing? Perhaps it would be best to compare India blunderbusses, mortars, matchlocks, ect with their domestic counterpart? The point is very simple you can't because there is no competition for either. India isnt making long rifles so comparing their guns to long rifles is irrelevant. What is relevant would be comparing Indian guns to comparable gunsmiths that are building custom pieces because that is exactly what they must be compared only so you are comparing apples to apples. Now you would be comparing a cheap mass produced weapon with an individual hand built.

To simply say they are dangerous I offer this. They are around in such numbers and in the hands of some of the most inexperienced shooters shouldn't there be a wealth of accidents to pool from proving your point?
View attachment 268645
I have worked on a few, this was going out last year.

A brown bess is the best example I can come up with and here is the comparison. You can get a functional bess imported from india for about $750. You can find one from pendersoli for ____ (what is the price and availability on a new pendersoli anyways?). Or you can order from the rifle shoppe and spend $1200 on a parts set, of course then you still need to find someone to assemble it. The cost of that assembly naturally varies with the builder I think 1500-3500 is a fair estimate. All 3 guns "work" but naturally there is a build difference associated with the cost and it would be foolish to consider them all the same. Very few guns are comparable across the spectrum and to tell someone they shouldn't buy a blunderbuss (I use blunderbuss as an example because it is indian and unobtainum domestic) because it's "junk" when the only option is to have one hand made at ??? times the cost (TRS has no blunderbuss barrels) is not stupid but just plain mean.

This thread about Indian muskets remindes me of what I told my brother many years ago. We were and still are lovers of two wheel transportation, we both recognized that opinions about motorcycles were varied and adamant. Back then I had gotten involved with the equestrian life style and there were certain breeds I loved and ones I did not. In a conversation with my brother I said "If you think people have opinions about motorcycles, it's nothing compared to horses. Well I think the Indian musket debate has surpassed that.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Well if Pedersoli or Indian made guns were like this true to form. But since they do not represent the style then I guess it,s up to the person as to how much work they are willing to invest.

 

[Commodore Swab]

The sparks are not in the wrong location. They’re over the pan. You keep hijacking my picture to imply I don’t know what I’m doing and now are attempting to say you’re helping correct my issue… that’s called gas lighting, and yes that’s insulting.

That frizzen was case hardened in bone charcoal for 1 hour and tempered … this lock Will spark for years without fail.

Maybe you’re not really understanding that all locks do not spark the same, the sparks need to be over the pan. High or low they need to be over the pan and first and foremost the lock needs to be able to produce a spark.

My name is very well-known, and I secure my reputation by producing very good work.

Take Mike’s advice and and pick better projects you don’t want to have the reputation of a junker. There are plenty of those.

And by the way, I know who you are. You’re not nearly this rude on Facebook, don’t come calling me for parts or my locks. And I’ll also let The Rifle Shoppe know to not send me your stuff.

I'm sorry we will have to disagree here as I believe the sparks should be delivered into the pan and not "over the pan" as you have stated and shown. Im assuming by the pictures that you are selling this lock?

1763 Charleville Musket Lock | eBay

After tax and shipping I figure ball park around starting bid puts someone out about $550, seems pretty high for a lock. May I suggest adding your name and reputation? As you state it is well known, it may assist in achieving your starting bid.

 

[sturmkatze]

I'm sorry we will have to disagree here as I believe the sparks should be delivered into the pan and not "over the pan" as you have stated and shown. Im assuming by the pictures that you are selling this lock?

1763 Charleville Musket Lock | eBay

After tax and shipping I figure ball park around starting bid puts someone out about $550, seems pretty high for a lock. May I suggest adding your name and reputation? As you state it is well known, it may assist in achieving your starting bid.

And here we go again. The un named troll, trolling.

 

[John May]

I’m using a very old Coach Harness Brown Bess that looks like it should be real! Reportedly made in the 60/70’s by Kit Ravenshear but I’ve no proof of this other than hearsay from the previous owner. I have a picture of the barrels being ‘proofed’, a long line of them all set off together!
I was seriously contemplating an Indian Paget Carbine but it sold before I got to it. An original could cost anywhere up to £2500 GBP and, would you shoot it?
In comparison the Indian made gun cost £450 GBP. No brainer for me.

 

[FlinterNick]

I'm sorry we will have to disagree here as I believe the sparks should be delivered into the pan and not "over the pan" as you have stated and shown. Im assuming by the pictures that you are selling this lock?

1763 Charleville Musket Lock | eBay

After tax and shipping I figure ball park around starting bid puts someone out about $550, seems pretty high for a lock. May I suggest adding your name and reputation? As you state it is well known, it may assist in achieving your starting bid.

I'm sorry we will have to disagree here as I believe the sparks should be delivered into the pan and not "over the pan" as you have stated and shown. Im assuming by the pictures that you are selling this lock?

1763 Charleville Musket Lock | eBay

After tax and shipping I figure ball park around starting bid puts someone out about $550, seems pretty high for a lock. May I suggest adding your name and reputation? As you state it is well known, it may assist in achieving your starting bid.

My name is on here, it’s my signature don’t staulk too hard at 1 am …. You may raise some red flags with the moderators.

Nicholas A. Genda

 

[FlinterNick]

I’m using a very old Coach Harness Brown Bess that looks like it should be real! Reportedly made in the 60/70’s by Kit Ravenshear but I’ve no proof of this other than hearsay from the previous owner. I have a picture of the barrels being ‘proofed’, a long line of them all set off together!
I was seriously contemplating an Indian Paget Carbine but it sold before I got to it. An original could cost anywhere up to £2500 GBP and, would you shoot it?
In comparison the Indian made gun cost £450 GBP. No brainer for me.

Those were made by Sandy McNabe in England, the lock was made by Pedersoli. Reeves ghoring did the hardware. Kit had assisted in the stock design I believe.

Barrels were a little small for a long land.

Dixie gun works bought the project and had Pedersoli mark the locks Stowe after the West Point curator.

Nice repros but the Dixie ones were not great, stocks were a poor quality beech.

 

[Some_Mook]

This thread about Indian muskets remindes me of what I told my brother many years ago. We were and still are lovers of two wheel transportation, we both recognized that opinions about motorcycles were varied and adamant. Back then I had gotten involved with the equestrian life style and there were certain breeds I loved and ones I did not. In a conversation with my brother I said "If you think people have opinions about motorcycles, it's nothing compared to horses. Well I think the Indian musket debate has surpassed that.

Is this thread still even about the relative quality vs price point of Indian manufactured muskets?

IMO, there are some pretty cool pictures of sparks flying all around in this thread. A lot more sparks without pictures though...

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Is this thread still even about the relative quality vs price point of Indian manufactured muskets?

IMO, there are some pretty cool pictures of sparks flying all around in this thread. A lot more sparks without pictures though...

Nope. It's turned into another ego stroking you have a different opinion and hurt my feelings thread by some of the same guys that turn many threads here into such similar hogwash.

Without weighing in on the quality of low budget import stuff. 14 pages in on another of these threads and yet again no one has pointed out that these guys are basically gun mechanics so the only ones they're going to see are the broken ones. That does tend to skew opinions.

 

[Some_Mook]

the only ones they're going to see are the broken ones. That does tend to skew opinions.

LOL. I'll concur with that statement. I have been an auto mechanic for over 45 years. I can state with empirical certainty that all cars are junk...