longer range hunting

[chickenmcnasty]

I love the fit and sight picture of the enfield, but perhaps that's because the sights are so awful on the investarms hawken. I love the buckhorn sights on my lever gun and can routinely hit out to 200 with those.

Don't forget sights can be changed...if you don't like it, fix it.

There is another member that is looking at trying to find a plate to mount to the existing sight screws in the barrel. I have considered getting a dovetail cut, but I don't know how to find a good gunsmith in the area and I'm afraid of what it might cost.

 

[don hepler]

Long range shooting and long range hunting, is two different stories. With long range hunting, you will need to do the home work. You'll need a good range finder. The bullet drop is going to shock you. I think at least a vernier sight, would be necessary. I'd work my way slowly, thru the process. Shoot a deer with a traditional muzzle loader at 100 yards, and I'll be impressed. I've hunted for 47 years and taken a lot of deer. However, the longest shot with a traditional rifle, was maybe 60 yards. I shoot a lot, sometimes 3 days a week. Holding a rifle steady and getting the killing power, out past 100 yards, and hunting humanely is going to be a challenge. After you've killed several at a 100 yards, you'll know what it takes.

 

[MacRob46]

Lee Shaver, who spent quite a bit of time on BP cartridge rifles, is now expending most of his efforts in long range muzzle loaders or at least he was the last time I talked to him. He makes and sells a wide variety of sights as well as doing gunsmithing. I suggest that you give him a call or e-mail him about your requirements. He is a real nice guy and very helpful. I have two sets of his long range sights and am very happy with them. They are mounted on BPCRs.

One thing about sights and ranges. You can have the very best iron sights on your rifle and not be able to get a decent sight picture at long range. In that case it does not matter what kind of terminal ballistics you may have or how good you are at wind doping, etc. If you cannot see it and/or cannot see it well enough to put a round into the animal's vital area for a clean kill, you won't take much game. I missed one the other day with a .280 and 3x9 Leupold scope at 290 yards. I could not have made out the deer's kill zone with iron sights.

You will find that bullet drop IS the major factor in shooting those big bullets at ranges much over 100 yards. A tang sight with a medium to long staff will be necessary and I also recommed that it be equipped with a Hadley eye cup. Lee can talk with you about that. By the way, I am not doing a commercial for Lee but my contacts with him have been pleasant and he has always been helpful.

I also think the recommendations for Whitworth or Gibbs rifles are a very good answer to your needs. Both are made for extremely long range shooting and I hear good things.

 

[Toomuch51]

Why not move closer to the game u seek

I must agree.
In my humble opinion anything beyond 150 to 200 yds. is no longer hunting but merely target practice, and I don't have to kill something to prove I can hit the mark.

Toomuch
-----------
Shoot Flint

 

[stinkyfeet]

Why not move closer to the game u seek

I must agree.
In my humble opinion anything beyond 150 to 200 yds. is no longer hunting but merely target practice, and I don't have to kill something to prove I can hit the mark.

Toomuch
-----------
Shoot Flint

I guess I am missing the point of the post you said you lost the love of shooting them with a cf rifle around 250 yards but want to do it with a muzzleloader because u can't get closer. This might be just me but I don't even get excited about a big buck past 100 yards because the thrill of being up close in the face afraid to move or ya might get caught is gone. The challenge my friend might be to get close, stalk, build a ground blind, use a decoy, call, use scents to me are better options then assembling a muzzleloader sniper rifle and saying u want a challenge or change its the same thing different gun. Im not trying to be critical just not seeing the validity of the post

 

[Rifleman1776]

If you are interested in long range shooting then the muzzle loading game is not for you. These are emulating an old technology, really obsolete. ML rifles have a limited practical or effective range. Nothing can change that, especially for use in the field. My limit for a patched round ball hunting is 100 yards.
Your notion to soup-up an ancient style rifle for long range hunting is not new here. It just isn't practical. That is why scoped modern rifles were invented.

 

[Toomuch51]

Why not move closer to the game u seek

I must agree.
In my humble opinion anything beyond 150 to 200 yds. is no longer hunting but merely target practice, and I don't have to kill something to prove I can hit the mark.

Toomuch
-----------
Shoot Flint

I guess I am missing the point of the post you said you lost the love of shooting them with a cf rifle around 250 yards but want to do it with a muzzleloader because u can't get closer. This might be just me but I don't even get excited about a big buck past 100 yards because the thrill of being up close in the face afraid to move or ya might get caught is gone. The challenge my friend might be to get close, stalk, build a ground blind, use a decoy, call, use scents to me are better options then assembling a muzzleloader sniper rifle and saying u want a challenge or change its the same thing different gun. Im not trying to be critical just not seeing the validity of the post

Sorry for not being more clear.
The point I was making is what you have just stated in different words. There is only one valid reason for hunting, that is for filling the table.

Toomuch
-----------
Shoot Flint

 

[chickenmcnasty]

Why not move closer to the game u seek

I must agree.
In my humble opinion anything beyond 150 to 200 yds. is no longer hunting but merely target practice, and I don't have to kill something to prove I can hit the mark.

Toomuch

-----------
Shoot Flint

I guess I am missing the point of the post you said you lost the love of shooting them with a cf rifle around 250 yards but want to do it with a muzzleloader because u can't get closer. This might be just me but I don't even get excited about a big buck past 100 yards because the thrill of being up close in the face afraid to move or ya might get caught is gone. The challenge my friend might be to get close, stalk, build a ground blind, use a decoy, call, use scents to me are better options then assembling a muzzleloader sniper rifle and saying u want a challenge or change its the same thing different gun. Im not trying to be critical just not seeing the validity of the post

I'm sorry you don't see the validity. I believe hunting with open sights and black powder is a greater challenge than hunting with a scoped centerfire and thus, more fun! I liken it to the difference in hunting with my recurve vs compound. I think we all have different reasons and goals in hunting and that's okay.

 

[chickenmcnasty]

Don't overlook the simple Lyman Great Plains rifle with it's 1:32 hunter barrel. I neck shot (I was aiming at the neck) a meat deer this year at 180 yards - ranged. I have made a couple of other shots over 100 yards on trophy animals where no other shot would have presented.

I do try to keep my shots under 80 yards though. I didn't take up muzzleloading to shoot like a centrefire. Hunting is about stalking close not picking them off at long range.

Sounds like an awesome shot. Is that in .50 caliber?

 

[ncmtmike]

Without the risk of sounding like an arse :nono: You state that you are a bowhunter as well? Why not use the same skills you acquired to bowhunt with and apply to the muzzleloader?,I promise you CAN get just as close. In all my years of hunting with selfbow/muzzleloader,I have never had to pull the trigger on nothing over 25-30yds.Now it's nice to have eyes like a hawk but :shake: that will give out one day.You have some fine muzzleloaders in your rack,use them :wink:

 

[crockett]

Turner Kirkland, who founded Dixie Gun Works, thought 70 yards was an all around range for a muzzle loader with open sights and a PRB. The mountain men would limit their shots to around 100 yards when HUNTING. I think where all the confusion comes into the fray is the long shots in fighting hostile Indians or in a battle. The object is different- a hit in an arm, etc might not kill but it will take the enemy out of the fight.
If you take a cardboard box and cut out a life sized deer target and then set in in dry brush or a similar color at an honest 150 yards ( one and a half football fields in tall, dry brush)... FOR ME- I have trouble even seeing the target. I then need a good rest and time with open sights to get lined up on the deer sized target. I might only get 6" groups taking all this time and using a solid rest. What kind of ethical shot can I get in an excited, hunting situation using a less solid rest? I know lots of folks kill game at long ranges but I think that 70 yards- that remains a pretty good range for hunting with 100 yards getting pretty close to maximum (open sights, PRB). IMHO.

 

[chickenmcnasty]

Without the risk of sounding like an arse :nono: You state that you are a bowhunter as well? Why not use the same skills you acquired to bowhunt with and apply to the muzzleloader?,I promise you CAN get just as close. In all my years of hunting with selfbow/muzzleloader,I have never had to pull the trigger on nothing over 25-30yds.Now it's nice to have eyes like a hawk but :shake: that will give out one day.You have some fine muzzleloaders in your rack,use them :wink:

In the terrain That I hunt I assure you it is not possible.

 

[ncmtmike]

Well bye I'll leave this conversation to others :dead:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Without the risk of sounding like an arse :nono: You state that you are a bowhunter as well? Why not use the same skills you acquired to bowhunt with and apply to the muzzleloader?,I promise you CAN get just as close. In all my years of hunting with selfbow/muzzleloader,I have never had to pull the trigger on nothing over 25-30yds.Now it's nice to have eyes like a hawk but :shake: that will give out one day.You have some fine muzzleloaders in your rack,use them :wink:

In the terrain That I hunt I assure you it is not possible.

Are you saying that you cannot use a muzzleloader where you hunt with your bow?

 

[Toomuch51]

Why not move closer to the game u seek

I must agree.
In my humble opinion anything beyond 150 to 200 yds. is no longer hunting but merely target practice, and I don't have to kill something to prove I can hit the mark.

Toomuch
-----------
Shoot Flint

I guess I am missing the point of the post you said you lost the love of shooting them with a cf rifle around 250 yards but want to do it with a muzzleloader because u can't get closer. This might be just me but I don't even get excited about a big buck past 100 yards because the thrill of being up close in the face afraid to move or ya might get caught is gone. The challenge my friend might be to get close, stalk, build a ground blind, use a decoy, call, use scents to me are better options then assembling a muzzleloader sniper rifle and saying u want a challenge or change its the same thing different gun. Im not trying to be critical just not seeing the validity of the post

You misquote me! I NEVER said anything about missing the lore of high power, or wanting to shoot game at such extreme ranges. In fact, if you read what I did write you will find just the opposite.

Toomuch
--------------
Shoot Flint

 

[galamb]

Only because I was curious and wanted to see for myself I plugged some data from Lyman's into a ballistic calculator.

Rifle - Lyman Great Plains Hunter - 1:32 twist, 32" barrel - 50 cal
Bullet - Buffalo 490 grain hollow point conical
Powder - 120 grain Pyrodex RS (which gave the best muzzle velocity)

Muzzle Velocity: 1516 fps Muzzle Energy: 2501 ft/lb Muzzle pressure: 27,900 psi

Rifle sighted for 200 yards:

@ 50 yards - Point of impact - +7.15" Vel: 1340 fps Energy: 1957 ft/lb

@ 100 Yards - POI - +11.27" Vel: 1200 fps Energy: 1568 ft/lb

@ 150 Yards - POI - +9.35" Vel: 1075 fps Energy: 1258 ft/lb

@ 200 Yards (zero) POI - 0" Vel: 963 fps Energy: 1008 ft/lb

@ 250 Yards POI - -18.44" Vel: 862 fps Energy: 808 ft/lb

@ 300 Yards POI - -47.92" Vel 772 fps Energy: 646 ft/lb

I stopped at 300 yards since you would have to hold almost 4 feet high at 200 to still be out of the dirt at 300 yards - just not practical.

The "time to target" at 200 yards was .503 seconds, at 300 yards it was .851 seconds.

You can draw your own conclusions from the data..

 

[chickenmcnasty]

Only because I was curious and wanted to see for myself I plugged some data from Lyman's into a ballistic calculator.

Rifle - Lyman Great Plains Hunter - 1:32 twist, 32" barrel - 50 cal
Bullet - Buffalo 490 grain hollow point conical
Powder - 120 grain Pyrodex RS (which gave the best muzzle velocity)

Muzzle Velocity: 1516 fps Muzzle Energy: 2501 ft/lb Muzzle pressure: 27,900 psi

Rifle sighted for 200 yards:

@ 50 yards - Point of impact - +7.15" Vel: 1340 fps Energy: 1957 ft/lb

@ 100 Yards - POI - +11.27" Vel: 1200 fps Energy: 1568 ft/lb

@ 150 Yards - POI - +9.35" Vel: 1075 fps Energy: 1258 ft/lb

@ 200 Yards (zero) POI - 0" Vel: 963 fps Energy: 1008 ft/lb

@ 250 Yards POI - -18.44" Vel: 862 fps Energy: 808 ft/lb

@ 300 Yards POI - -47.92" Vel 772 fps Energy: 646 ft/lb

I stopped at 300 yards since you would have to hold almost 4 feet high at 200 to still be out of the dirt at 300 yards - just not practical.

The "time to target" at 200 yards was .503 seconds, at 300 yards it was .851 seconds.

You can draw your own conclusions from the data..

This is awesome info and helps tremendously. I'd it available online?

 

[chickenmcnasty]

Without the risk of sounding like an arse :nono: You state that you are a bowhunter as well? Why not use the same skills you acquired to bowhunt with and apply to the muzzleloader?,I promise you CAN get just as close. In all my years of hunting with selfbow/muzzleloader,I have never had to pull the trigger on nothing over 25-30yds.Now it's nice to have eyes like a hawk but :shake: that will give out one day.You have some fine muzzleloaders in your rack,use them :wink:

In the terrain That I hunt I assure you it is not possible.

Are you saying that you cannot use a muzzleloader where you hunt with your bow?

I can and do use the muzzleloader where I bow hunt, but that is a different part of the state with a completely different environment.

 

[galamb]

The initial data is from the Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading manual - well worth the 20 bucks or whatever I paid for it.

The ballistics calculator is available as a free download from Hawk Optic's Link

It's mostly set up for center-fire AND cross bows but if you take your time working through the drop downs you can customize it.

(it is set up to sell their rifle and cross bow scopes, so it is tailored toward their different reticle patterns - but hey, it works and it's free)..

You do need the muzzle velocity, weight of the bullet and the ballistic co-efficient of the bullet itself (which I got from the Lyman manual) - some bullet mfg's advertise the "BC" which is key to calculating the trajectory.

I do have some for common conicals in various calibers and roundballs (ditto the calibers) which I can pass along if you like...

 

[Kapow]

My Lyman is in 0.54 calibre. One day soon I will hunt buffalo with it, no probs. It would be interesting to see what a lighter bullet performs like such as the REAL, though I suspect they would not remain stable at longer ranges. Maybe a 0.50 would shoot flatter.

If you went the Great Plains Hunter path the logical bullet to start with would be Hornadys great plains bullet. They are quite accurate. For long range you will need to do something in the sights department and use a rangefinder.

I appreciate what you are trying to achieve but think you are going to wound game. You may have to compromise a bit by self imposing a 150-180m limit on your shots. Not quite the 250 you are looking for. Or maybe shell out the bucks for a whitworth style rifle.

Good luck with your endeavours. Speak with Idaho Ron. He shoots some critters at long range and makes no apologies for it. I don't think he spent a fortune on his gear either.