longer range hunting

[Claude Mathis]

Without the risk of sounding like an arse :nono: You state that you are a bowhunter as well? Why not use the same skills you acquired to bowhunt with and apply to the muzzleloader?,I promise you CAN get just as close. In all my years of hunting with selfbow/muzzleloader,I have never had to pull the trigger on nothing over 25-30yds.Now it's nice to have eyes like a hawk but :shake: that will give out one day.You have some fine muzzleloaders in your rack,use them :wink:

In the terrain That I hunt I assure you it is not possible.

Are you saying that you cannot use a muzzleloader where you hunt with your bow?

I can and do use the muzzleloader where I bow hunt, but that is a different part of the state with a completely different environment.

My point was, why not use your muzzleloader in an environment where you can get close to the game? Choosing the right tool for the job is important.

 

[Wes/Tex]

My point was, why not use your muzzleloader in an environment where you can get close to the game? Choosing the right tool for the job is important.

Otherwise you need a math teacher as a hunting guide to figure the drop in meters! :wink: :haha:

 

[nkbj]

Started to get one of the Lee Shaver medium sights for the fast twist .40 GPR. However, the lowest setting on the sight would have been way high over the top of the barrel. The sights are made for shooting far with lots of drop. In the case of the GPR it would have required a huge front sight to shoot at a hundred. And yep, it broke my heart.

Lee Shaver, who spent quite a bit of time on BP cartridge rifles, is now expending most of his efforts in long range muzzle loaders or at least he was the last time I talked to him. He makes and sells a wide variety of sights as well as doing gunsmithing. I suggest that you give him a call or e-mail him about your requirements. He is a real nice guy and very helpful. I have two sets of his long range sights and am very happy with them. They are mounted on BPCRs.

One thing about sights and ranges. You can have the very best iron sights on your rifle and not be able to get a decent sight picture at long range. In that case it does not matter what kind of terminal ballistics you may have or how good you are at wind doping, etc. If you cannot see it and/or cannot see it well enough to put a round into the animal's vital area for a clean kill, you won't take much game. I missed one the other day with a .280 and 3x9 Leupold scope at 290 yards. I could not have made out the deer's kill zone with iron sights.

You will find that bullet drop IS the major factor in shooting those big bullets at ranges much over 100 yards. A tang sight with a medium to long staff will be necessary and I also recommed that it be equipped with a Hadley eye cup. Lee can talk with you about that. By the way, I am not doing a commercial for Lee but my contacts with him have been pleasant and he has always been helpful.

I also think the recommendations for Whitworth or Gibbs rifles are a very good answer to your needs. Both are made for extremely long range shooting and I hear good things.

 

[dave524]

The other fly in the ointment with time of flight at longer ranges aproaching a sec is wind drift :shocked2:

With handy dandy optical range finders and a cheat sheet taped to the butt stock and good sights like micrometer adjustable Lyman 66 peep ( that's what i've been using since 78 )we might be able to conquer the drop issue but while you'd think a 400 grain chunk of lead would be pretty good windbucker, it is not Wind drift is similar to a 22 rimfire and even a small miscue can result in a miss or worse a wounded animal.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Yes sir! The math works horizontally as well as vertically...looking at the drop and drift charts makes you realize learning to crawl is a worthwhile pastime! Figuring it all out needs a math guy and an artillery guy just to kibitz!

 

[Spikebuck]

I have never attempted shooting that far, but if I was interested in that I would think that some kind of elevation adjustable peep (vernier style)and a very fine bead front sight would be in order.

Having spent 30 years as a bowhunter exclusively before ever even getting into traditional muzzleloading I don't tend to think long-range...well I think 100 yards is long range! :grin: But, to each his own as long as it can be done ethically to produce quick, sure kills.

Not judging, but I tend to agree with others that at a certain range it becomes good shooting versus what I tend to think of as "hunting." But then I don't hunt on the flat treeless prairies that you are probably describing. :v

 

[galamb]

That I understand completely. First and foremost I am a bowhunter. Even my 40 cal doubles my "kill range" and is a "long range" weapon.

Now if I was hunting the "wide open" and planned on doing it with a muzzle loader I just wouldn't feel right unless I had shot hundreds of rounds at various distances under all kinds of weather conditions to determine what was a "realistically make-able shot".

It's one thing to shoot from a bench, at a range, on a nice day, totally relaxed and hit a 200 yard target and get a group that could take game - quite another if you can do it under hunting conditions. And if that Muley is actually at 210 yards, instead of 200, you could miss low or worse, hit it low.

I can't see myself having the discipline required to develop that skill level - get distracted too easily :grin: but to be fair, 30 yards for me is further than I have ever had to shoot - arrow or bullet..

 

[don hepler]

Want to find your limitations? Or anyone else, that's in this discussion. Take a 10 inch piece of cardboard (because it's about the color of a deer), place it in the woods or field, but not at a range (bench shooting don't count), and see what yardage you can hit it consistently. And don't put a target on it, either. Just plain old piece of cardboard. Anybody, want to try? Try to duplicate a hunting environment, and show us the result.

 

[chickenmcnasty]

That I understand completely. First and foremost I am a bowhunter. Even my 40 cal doubles my "kill range" and is a "long range" weapon.

Now if I was hunting the "wide open" and planned on doing it with a muzzle loader I just wouldn't feel right unless I had shot hundreds of rounds at various distances under all kinds of weather conditions to determine what was a "realistically make-able shot".

It's one thing to shoot from a bench, at a range, on a nice day, totally relaxed and hit a 200 yard target and get a group that could take game - quite another if you can do it under hunting conditions. And if that Muley is actually at 210 yards, instead of 200, you could miss low or worse, hit it low.

I can't see myself having the discipline required to develop that skill level - get distracted too easily :grin: but to be fair, 30 yards for me is further than I have ever had to shoot - arrow or bullet..

It took a lot of time to get to where I felt comfortable taking 225 yard shots on deer with my centerfire. I put limitations on myself that most do not. The time I spend on my hobbies is borderline obscession. My wife has given up on trying to talk me out of my "dedication" and now tends to go along and pray it ends soon!
In short, I want to understand the limitations of some of these guns, but in the end my self imposed limitations will be under what the gun is capable of. I strive for perfection, but I will always pass on a shot that I don't feel good about.

 

[chickenmcnasty]

Want to find your limitations? Or anyone else, that's in this discussion. Take a 10 inch piece of cardboard (because it's about the color of a deer), place it in the woods or field, but not at a range (bench shooting don't count), and see what yardage you can hit it consistently. And don't put a target on it, either. Just plain old piece of cardboard. Anybody, want to try? Try to duplicate a hunting environment, and show us the result.

Very true. It makes a huge difference to practice with as much realism as possible.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I have set up my rifles to shoot out to 300 yards if I need to. I am using paper patched bullets and adjustable peeps. I don't like taking a shot past 150 for the first shot at an animal but. I decided to become proficient with my gun and load out to 300 yards. If something happens and I need to I know I can. If you search some of my posts you will see a lot about them.
I understand your need. We have hunts for elk,deer and antelope in areas that sometimes your just can't get closer than 150 yards. Some guys don't believe it but that is the way it is. It might take me 10 or 15 years to draw a tag. I am not going to pass a 150 yard shot on an animal if I have waited over 10 years for a tag. You are going to need a bullet for the job. I have also written a lot about bullets and I have written a lot about the game I have killed with them. You can do it it is just going to take some time and a lot of $$$$
Ron

 

[Kapow]

I think the longer barrel of the Lyman GPR/H makes it a little more accurate to sight than some of the shorter barrelled rifles due to the longer sight radius. I don't use adjustable sights but rather very easy-to-see primitive sights and have adapted a very consistent holdover. If I have to have daylight between the sights and the critters backline I am starting to get uncomfortable with the shot.

The other crucial part of the rifles ability to stretch my shots is the trigger. On recommendation from people on this site I put in Davis deerslayer triggers. They are so light and crisp that there is no disturbance to my sight picture when I touch off the shot. In fact every time the shot comes as a surprise to me.

I have a plan to make some shooting sticks for plains hunting which I believe will help even further.

 

[Walks with fire]

About 10 years back I had the same desires as you do. And like Ron said it's going to take some money for equipment and lot's of time before you would become good at it. I felt it wasn't for me after a short period of time.

I lost interest in centerfires because I felt that it was too easy. I wanted the challenge of shooting long range with a flint muzzleloader but soon lost interest in that as well. Sure, I could extend range with standard open sights, a conical bullet and a fast twist barrel and lots of practice but in the end I didn't like it for my hunting.

I did lots of shooting, lots of reading on the subject. I still have the barrels and I wouldn't want to part with them but they don't go deer hunting anymore.

Now the interest is in getting close, moderate loads with patched ball. Pretty much right back where I started. The areas I hunt deer in very seldom present shots over 100 yards anyway. I see lots of deer and have plenty of tags so passing on a longer shot doesn't matter to me. I hunt timbered woods and heavily overgrown areas so long range shots just were not a regular opportunity.

If your interested in it then do your research, get the right equipment and put in the practice time. It won't take long to find out what your abilites are. Have fun and get er done.

 

[MacRob46]

Started to get one of the Lee Shaver medium sights for the fast twist .40 GPR. However, the lowest setting on the sight would have been way high over the top of the barrel. The sights are made for shooting far with lots of drop. In the case of the GPR it would have required a huge front sight to shoot at a hundred. And yep, it broke my heart. Sorry - I got your quote included in the body of my post by accident.


OK...you do have to match the front and rear sights. If you are looking at a standard blade front sight through a Lee Shaver rear sight then you are probably getting way too much elevation. You should opt for a globe front sight as well as the rear tang sight or at least a very high front sights. I just looked at a photo of the GPR and can understand the problem - short tang means having to attach the sight over the center line of the rifle bore - but it can be done. If not with a Lee Shaver sight then perhaps a No. 2 Lyman peep sight coupled with a Lyman globe front. Either way, that is going to provide a better sight picture than a buckhorn sight with a blade front. I also note quite a few posts about maximum ranges of muzzle loaders, with which I tend to agree. Specialty rifles like the Gibbs and Whitworth, were designed for extreme (for their day) long range shooting. Plains rifles and PA long rifles were not. You can stretch range and accuracy just so far with guns of these designs and I have to wonder whether or not it is worth all that effort. In Scotland, for example, a place of considerable open space, hunters have always stalked their big game in an effort to get close enough to not miss. Maybe that is the best way to handle this situation too.

 

[rodwha]

Longer range hunting with a muzzleloader is something I've also contemplated, and eventually intend on doing. I will attach a Malcolm style scope on top. But I don't want to need a range finder or any other gadgets to figure out how I should hold. So for me 200 yds would really be pushing it on a calm day. I've typically looked at 4" as being about the most variance I'd want to deal with, but even 6" would likely work well enough.

There just are some places that you can't get all that close. Hunting across fields is one thing I can do here despite being in a fairly well wooded place. So it opens up the possibilities for me. And where I usually have been there is no stalking around as the hunters around you would get really upset were you creeping around their spots. I actually prefer it, and so when I've gone I always inquire about who is around me. If there isn't anyone then I often take the opportunity to creep, which I need practice doing as my ADD typically kicks in eventually which has me moving a little faster than I ought to.

 

[don hepler]

At 200 yards, you could have as much as 24 inch drop, or more, depending on load, bullet style, etc. A 10 mile per hour cross wind will move a muzzle loading projectile from 9" to 17" at 200 yards, compared to a 30 cal. 168 Nosler BT at 2.8". A lot of range finders, won't even range a deer at 200 yards. I've taken deer, with the fastest muzzleloader,(you know what that is) and sighted high at 100 yards, it still dropped 14 inches at 200 yards. And, that was a 250 grain bullet moving at over 2000 fps. At some point, you're going to realize, you can't hunt with a bow at 200 yards, and a true traditional rifle ain't going to do it either.

 

[BrownBear]

I can and do use the muzzleloader where I bow hunt, but that is a different part of the state with a completely different environment.

Lotta guys live in close country and are darned good at hunting it. But that's their frame of reference, and they make the sad mistake of assuming their expertise can be applied in open country.

Louis and Clark and lots that followed them across the plains made the same mistake. Many ended up eating shoe leather, and more than a few starved to death. You happen to live right smack dab in the middle of that kind of country, and might even come across their graves in your wanderings.

Ignore the "experts" trying to apply their narrow frame of reference and inexperience to the facts of plains hunting. They're keyboardists and not plains hunters, the shoe leather eaters of today.

The challenge of long range shooting on the plains was met during the time frame covered by this site, and the pre-cartridge buffalo market hunters actually thrived with muzzleloaders. You'll do well to look at the examples of how they overcame their Eastern limitations to do so. Idaho Ron has done his homework too, and his posts over the years will be a treasure trove for you.

 

[rodwha]

A Hornady FPB with a BC of .285, and a ~70-75 grn charge of 3F sporting grade powder, zeroed at 150 yds would have a -9.28" drop at 200 yds, and a wind drift of 10.1" @ 10 mph/90*. That's quite doable if you've been practicing enough at ranges such as that. To me it's a little far though. That load and zero would have a high point of 4.49" @ 75 yds, and a low point of of -3.96" @ 175 yds, which would be what I'd call my max. But 200 yds could be done.

 

[rodwha]

Does anyone know the BC of a .50 cal 320 grn REAL? That's actually what I'd likely use, and I'm certain it's BC is much lower than a FPB. With a REAL I'd suspect my max would be closer to 150 yds with 175 yds possible on a calm day and plenty of practice.

 

[don hepler]

Doc White's charts indicate a 50 cal. RB at 1800 fps. and 150 grs.of fffg zero at 125 yds.(+3.5@100), -7"@150 yds. -14"@175 yds. -24.5@ 200 yds. A muzzle energy of 1300 at the muzzle is 450 at 100 yrds. and 340 at150 yds. and only 240 at 200 yards.

A deer is not a "Target"