Leman Rifle - sort of...

[WindLaker]

A while ago, I started a post on the Percussion Gun page named "Leman Rifle".
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/228467/

Long story short, I'm re-stocking a CVA Tennessee Rifle to a Leman stock.

I've got the barrel inlet to the stock, ribs are all set.

I'm ready to start inletting the lock (the original CVA lock).

Am I correct in thinking that the lock is WAY too small for the lock panel as is?

If it is too small, I've got to shape the lock panel down. Should I make it about 1/8" (slightly more at the front & back) larger than the lock? Is that a good dimension to aim for? I'll do my best to keep the shape of the panels.

Part 2... Inlet the lock first, or shape the panel first?

Thanks in advance,

WindLaker

 

[Old40Rod]

Here is a photo of the lock panel from the Leman shown on TOTW's Leman kit:

May not be perfect, but it should give you an idea of the proportions (authentic or not). Your lock plate does look quite on the smallish side.

A new lock may make things easier and look better... but I understand that would defeat your purpose.

 

[rich pierce]

My advice is to NEVER trust lock panels, etc on a precarve. This is a common mistake. They make them large to allow the maker to exercise some personal style. Remove wood fore and aft to fit the lock better. No maker, Leman or any other, used "standard lock panels." Lock panels are ALWAYS shaped to complement the lock.

That lock is mighty small and not at all the style present on most Leman trade rifles. If you decide to stick with this lock, I would see if it is possible to take wood off the belly line of the stock to reduce the thickness of your lock panels vertically. Otherwise the lock may look like it's floating in a big sea of wood. Calculate the thickness of the stock underneath the ramrod.

Attempting this assumes you will be able to shape the forestock effectively and get your entry thimble to work right (it may need re-shaping so the tail does not lift as high above the ramrod).

Alternatively get a good L&R etc percussion lock that is more in the style of that post above. You should be able to find something new for $80. Or used somewhere for $40.

 

[LaBonte]

FWIW - here's an original trade rifle with a smallish lock - note the amorphous (almost non-existent!) shape of the lock panel, not all rifles were built to an exact pattern more to a generalized "standard", so variations of varying degrees would be the norm rather than the exception. To give an idea of the size of the lock area - the tacks have either 3/8" or 7/16" diameter hads....

A final note - when the American Fur Company ordered rifles from Henry in the 1830-40's, they sometimes asked for 5" locks even though that particular style of rifle normally came with a 6" lock - I'm willing to bet that Henry didn't fuss too much over adjusting the size of the lock panels......

 

[MikeChapin]

I agree with Rich about the lock panels. Shape them to fit your lock. They are always larger than you need so you can put a variety of locks on a single stock. When I did mine I made the newbie mistake of leaving the lock panels as they were. One of these days I will get around to refinishing the stock and reducing the panel. I did reduce the belly line at the time in order to flow smoothly with the entry thimble.

 

[WindLaker]

Thanks gentlemen for your input.

The reason I want to stay with the CVA lock is the lock/drum/hammer geometry...it should not give me headaches if I keep the alignment as they were on the original (I have the original stock, which I'm using as a guide for alignment).

I have two T/C locks that I bought. They are about 1" longer, and I'm considering using those instead. My concerns are:

1. The drum cutout on the lock plate is much larger than the drum on the barrel.
2. I'm concerned about the hammer strike on the nipple.
3. I never disassembled a T/C lock (to get the lockplate off for inletting).

Please remember, this is my first build that is NOT a kit, so I'm trying to walk before I run.

Thanks again,

WindLaker

 

[WindLaker]

After a day of watching football & mulling over my options, I think I've decided to go with one of the T/C locks I have. It is about 1" longer the CVA lock.

I have a question regarding the T/C lock. I've never owned a T/C gun, so I've got some questions.

In the photo, the 3 points I have highlighted are below the bottom edge of the lockplate at different stages of being cocked.

Point #1 (back end of spring) & 2 are below the edge at half-cock & fire.
Point #3 (sear) is right at the bottom edge at half-cock, and below at full-cock.

My question is when I inlet the lock, do I leave no relief edge where these points go below the lockplate edge? Say, a point about halfway the length of the spring to a point just behind the back end of the sear? Then, carve out areas of wood so there is room for those parts to move freely?

Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but everything I've ever worked on had a relief edge around the entire lockplate.

Thanks again,

WindLaker

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

When the lock is mounted in the gun, the hammer rests on the nipple and that keeps the innards from hitting the wood. You want to have the lock in the half-cock position when removing and replacing it.

 

[Old40Rod]

the hammer rests on the nipple and that keeps the innards from hitting the wood

Unless you drop the hammer with the nipple removed :wink: I remove the nipple for cleaning, and I store my percussion guns with the nipple removed. I drop the hammer on the snail with no nipple to relieve the spring.

 

[WindLaker]

When the lock is mounted in the gun, the hammer rests on the nipple and that keeps the innards from hitting the wood. You want to have the lock in the half-cock position when removing and replacing it.

Russ,

I respectfully disagree with you. The points I mentioned are below the edge of the lockplate. I just checked a few more times and I'm sure of it.

Can I inlet the lock, with no relief along the bottom edge of the lockplate without getting myself in more trouble?

I was thinking about inletting thw lock this way...

Do you think this will work OK?

WindLaker

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Are they below the lock plate with the hammer pulled back to half cock or almost to half cock? If so there is something wrong with that lock.

If you have parts that always hang below the plate, no amount of relieving in the mortise will fix things. In fact, you may find it a little difficult to get the lock into the mortise at all.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

How many of the parts in your lock hang below the plate?

 

[paulvallandigham]

My suggestion is to send the lock back to T/C for repair or replacement. NONE of those parts you indicate should be sticking down below the bottom edge of the lockplate. You don't say what gun that lock is from, so its hard to give you more advice. There are many different models and guns that T/C has marketed over the years. I don't really see how you could get that lock into the lock mortise if those parts are sticking down, even then the hammer is at half cock.

 

[LaBonte]

The points I mentioned are below the edge of the lockplate. I just checked a few more times and I'm sure of it.

But are they below the lock plate when it is at half cock?
If so then the lock is IMO a problem looking for a solution and the solution is to get the lock fixed - NOT to hog out your inletting.......

 

[rich pierce]

I'd avoid using that lock for the same reasons others have indicated. For sure the tumbler should have a stop on it that prevents the hammer (cock) from going so far forward. Someday you may get that lock stuck in the mortise and ruin something. At the very least you'd have to take it out and relpace it very carefully, tipping out the top. So the barrel would have to be removed, etc. There's a GPR lock on ebay right now that would work well.

Paste this in: LYMAN GRT PLAINS RIFLE BLACKPOWDER RH LOCK-PERCUSSION

 

[WindLaker]

The parts go below the lockplate no more than 1/16".

I called T/C when I got home form work, they were closed...I'll call tomorrow.

I have two T/C locks. On one, the hammer DOES NOT stop until it hits the top of the lockplate. On one, it does stop before it hits.

I think I'll use the other T/C lock (the one that does stop). It's a tad smaller than the one I really wanted to use, but it's still bigger than the CVA.

Thanks for your help.

WindLaker

 

[WindLaker]

After a week of much head scratching, I've decided to use the CVA lock on this gun. My thinking is that since it's my first try at a scratch built gun, I'm going to keep the lock & barrel together. I will save the T/C lock for my next gun.

So I've reshaped the lock panel, as you can see.
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q283/windlaker/New_Lock_Plate.jpg

I still have to bring up the bottom edge, closer to the lockplate.

I'll accept any comments on my new lock panel so far...OK as is, smaller(close to edges of lock) if you care to comment.

Thanks,

WindLaker

p.s. Anyone know why I can't get the picture embedded this time?

 

[50cal.cliff]

I don't really have a comment about the lock. The lock that looks like it belongs there is about the best I can do and hey, I know that's not much help! In other words the lock should look like it was part of the orgional rifle. Gunsmiths of the 1800's used different lock in similar guns but they always used somthing that would have been available and reliable and a lock that seemed to suit the gun they were building the best.

As for the picture problem I think you are using the wrong code. You need to use the IMG Code. For example using the code you are using the Email $ IM Coede you get this. http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u20/craft5759/?action=view&current=IMG_0403.jpg
But if you use the IMG Code you get this.

Both codes take you to the same place but only the IMG Code allows for the pic to be embedded in the text.Hope that helps.

 

[WindLaker]

I'm back.

After more pondering, I've switched back to the CVA lock. I've decided to save the better T/C lock for a later gun.

I've re-shaped the lock panels, as shown in the "Before and After" picture. Yes, the opposite side is done, and matches this side pretty well.

I'll update this link when I inlet the lock. Any comments/constructive criticism of my work so far is always welcome.

WindLaker

 

[LaBonte]

Here's an original Leman - note the top edge at the front in particular. Also you can bring that top edge down some and the lower edge up a bit - IMO with just a bit of tweaking it will be looking fine........

hope this helps