Jugged choke and round balls

[rusticbob]

I have a new to me 14ga Fowler, it has a jugged choke and shoots a tight pattern at 25 yards. My problem is I cannot seem to get any consistent accuracy with patched round balls. I have tried numerous patch thicknesses, various lines and even bare balls. Question is am I wasting my time because of the jug choke? Or should I just keep trying?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So there is no known reference to patching a smoothbore in the 18th, and possibly 19th century. I think they knew that because of the lack of grooves as in a rifle to give the patch a consistent fold, they knew that it would not help accuracy as in a rifle. The idea behind "jug" choking was to be able to fire a round ball or slug AND to get the tight pattern of a choke, so what you want to try is a good fiber wad and some tow, and a very closely fitting ball. Try to get it to hit a 6" disk at 50 yards with the ball.

LD

 

[Brokennock]

What have you tried for loads specifically?

The issue most likely isn't the jug choke.
My best roundball loads are usually with wads instead of patches. But, I don't have a jug choke. I would think the jug choke might create problems with a patch because it gives an opportunity for the patch amd ball combo to loosen when it enters the jug.
As Loyalist Dave said, there is no evidence of patches being used to shoot roundballs from smoothbores during the period. (Although I have some alternate theories on this specific to smoothrifles)
Here is what I have tried. Two different smoothbores like different things.
Powder preceds each of these combos.
Thin "overshot" card/s (one or two), lubed felt wad, ball, two thin overshot cards.
Nitro card, lubed felt wad, ball, thin card/s (neither gun shot this well, but I didn't try it a lot with other variables)
Dry felt wad, lubed felt wad, ball, thin card/s
Thin card, lubed tow wad, ball, thin card/s
Lubed tow wad, ball, thin card/s
1x2 inch strip of brown bag paper "rubbed soft" folded to 1x1 seated on powder, lubed tow, ball, thin card/s.

Just a theory in the back of my head, maybe try some of the combinations listed that use more flexible wadding behind the ball. This should allow them to expand when they reach the jug allowing them to maintain the gas seal.
One of my guns really didn't seem to do well with hard objects behind the ball, felt wads, tow, paper and tow, all seem to shoot better in that gun.

Just a disclaimer on the above. I am not using real flax tow, I don't have any and don't have a regular local source. I am using what I call, "faux-tow" which is just 4 to 5 inch pieces of sisal rope sections shredded then balled up amd rubbed in my lube, then I try to work the lube into the ball really well and reform into a ball slightly larger than the roundball I am shooting. When I take one out of my bag to load I smush it then force it into the muzzle.

 

[rusticbob]

I was wondering if the hard nitro card was the proper product for a hard, round ball. I have cut some heavy still leather wads to use as an over powder wad. I do not have tow either, but the idea of using sisal twine or rope is certainly possible. Was wondering what lube was used, olive oil?, mink oil? My concern would be to not contaminate the powder charge. I am shooting a .672 round ball, which slides down easily with no patch, but even a .010 patch is to tight.
From most sources I have heard from,it is starting to appear that much more experimenting is required.
Thanks for the ideas!

 

[Brokennock]

Leather is certainly a good and often used material, I haven't tried it,,,, yet.

My concern would be to not contaminate the powder charge.

Some say this is not a concern. However, it is the reason I try to put something between powder and lubed wad or lubed patch. Dry felt under lubed felt, thin overshot card under lubed felt or tow. Plain brown paper under tow.
I also feel that the thin overshot card or brown paper inder the tow or felt wad can help improve the gas seal.

wondering what lube was used, olive oil?, mink oil?

Mink oil is great. If I can scrape up the funds to lay in a supply of several cans at one time I might start using it more often. Mostly I try to use things I am most likely to have on hand already, multi purpose products, and were available in the period. Mixtures of olive oil and beeswax are my primary "go to," lubes, ratios/consistency depends on use and weather. Sometimes coconut oil and beeswax, or neatsfoot oil and beeswax.

shooting a .672 round ball, which slides down easily with no patch, but even a .010 patch is to tight

I know it is contrary to "The rules," and to conventional wisdom, but, many of us find that smoothbores shoot better with looser patched ball combinations.
One of mine has a .615 bore and shoots it's best patched ball load with a .595 ball and .010 patch (shoots even better with a .610 ball in a "wad sandwich" though). It does not like any combo involving the "standard" 20 gauge .60 caliber ball.

 

[Woody Morgan]

I use lubed wads and round ball in the cylinder bore side of my Pedersoli 20 SxS. I can consistantly hit a 12x12 gong offhand at 50 yards with it.
Good enuff for me.

wm

 

[Canadian Dragoon]

What size RB, powder grade and charge and what wads? I would love to hear your recipe as I have a Pedersoli 20ga SxS on order..

Cheers

I use lubed wads and round ball in the cylinder bore side of my Pedersoli 20 SxS. I can consistantly hit a 12x12 gong offhand at 50 yards with it.
Good enuff for me.

wm

 

[Flintandsteel]

Here’s a 10g NE Fowler with a jug choke. Jugs will shoot round ball. They usually require a little more powder. That shot pattern is at 50 yds.

 

[tenngun]

So there is no known reference to patching a smoothbore in the 18th, and possibly 19th century. I think they knew that because of the lack of grooves as in a rifle to give the patch a consistent fold, they knew that it would not help accuracy as in a rifle. The idea behind "jug" choking was to be able to fire a round ball or slug AND to get the tight pattern of a choke, so what you want to try is a good fiber wad and some tow, and a very closely fitting ball. Try to get it to hit a 6" disk at 50 yards with the ball.

LD

I by accident found an 1847 reference to its use in Canada. It’s in Russell’s firearms traps and tools of the Mountian men. Russel abbreviated it some what the original quote was using the tips of worn out gloves. Since you may shoot faster then you wear out gloves I would assume but not prove that skin in patching would be used at least.
The experiences were before ‘47 and spoken of as a normal activity the reader should be familiar with.

 

[Woody Morgan]

What size RB, powder grade and charge and what wads? I would love to hear your recipe as I have a Pedersoli 20ga SxS on order..

Cheers

60 grains of 3f Swiss, 2 overpowder cards, half of a 1/2" fiber wad soaked in olive oil, .600" round ball, other half of fiber wad to hold it in.
You would think that the bare .600 ball rattling down the .62 bore wouldn't come close to hitting anything but it sure does. Minimum fouling too.

wm

 

[rusticbob]

I think I will try the unpatched ball system with lubed wads. I also watched a video my Mike Belliveau who uses the same unpatched method.
I will start with powder, then a heavy leather wad ,lubed wool wad, ball, and a stiff wad to hold it all in place.
Another question, my dad was a plumber and he used a product called oak up, when he was packing lead joints, is oakum tow that has been lubed?
Just wondering.

 

[rusticbob]

I hate predictive spelling, the product is OAKUM, not oak up!

 

[windini]

s oakum tow that has been lubed?

I recall from something I read years ago (don't have time to look it up now, so this could use verification) that oakum was retired rope/rigging from navy ships that was picked apart by hand into fibers.This work was done by (female, I think) prisoners.

The fibers were mixed with tar & used like chinking between the planks of a ship's hull.

Again, that's from memory, so no guaruntee it's historically correct!

 

[rusticbob]

Wikipedia says about the same, the tar part doesn’t sound good at all.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

So there is no known reference to patching a smoothbore in the 18th, and possibly 19th century. I think they knew that because of the lack of grooves as in a rifle to give the patch a consistent fold, they knew that it would not help accuracy as in a rifle. The idea behind "jug" choking was to be able to fire a round ball or slug AND to get the tight pattern of a choke, so what you want to try is a good fiber wad and some tow, and a very closely fitting ball. Try to get it to hit a 6" disk at 50 yards with the ball.

LD

Help me out? what is a "jug" choke?

 

[david w]

Help me out? what is a "jug" choke?

A jugged choke has a consistent bore diameter except for about a 2-1/2" area. The "jugged" area is bored larger. The premise is shot will start to expand in the wider opening, then constrict back down so that it throws tight patterns.

 

[Brokennock]

I use lubed wads and round ball in the cylinder bore side of my Pedersoli 20 SxS. I can consistantly hit a 12x12 gong offhand at 50 yards with it.
Good enuff for me.

wm

What size RB, powder grade and charge and what wads? I would love to hear your recipe as I have a Pedersoli 20ga SxS on order..

Cheers

60 grains of 3f Swiss, 2 overpowder cards, half of a 1/2" fiber wad soaked in olive oil, .600" round ball, other half of fiber wad to hold it in.
You would think that the bare .600 ball rattling down the .62 bore wouldn't come close to hitting anything but it sure does. Minimum fouling too.

wm

Great info,,,,, for a side by side double with no jug choke.
Why not start a topic about shooting round balls from a side by side?
Rather than muddying the waters for this new member and his jug choked gun.

 

[smoothshooter]

So there is no known reference to patching a smoothbore in the 18th, and possibly 19th century. I think they knew that because of the lack of grooves as in a rifle to give the patch a consistent fold, they knew that it would not help accuracy as in a rifle. The idea behind "jug" choking was to be able to fire a round ball or slug AND to get the tight pattern of a choke, so what you want to try is a good fiber wad and some tow, and a very closely fitting ball. Try to get it to hit a 6" disk at 50 yards with the ball.

LD

If it was possible you can bet people tried and did it a lot.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

If it was possible you can bet people tried and did it a lot.

I think they tried it and found it didn't work well.
Which is why they didn't continue the practice.
We, think we should patch the smoothbore because there are so many of us these days using rifles compared to back then.



LD

 

[smoothshooter]

I think they tried it and found it didn't work well.
Which is why they didn't continue the practice.
We, think we should patch the smoothbore because there are so many of us these days using rifles compared to back then.



LD

There would be several reasons to do it.

• The bullets available are smaller than optimum.
• Wads might not have been available.
• Better gas seal than wadded up blanket material or natural fibrous materials.
• The likelihood that some people’s guns would have shot them just fine.