idea for a product

[tg]

BTW there would not really be any savings in not having a buttplate as they can be made from sheet metal as could the TG's, see if you can find a ML builder who will take a plank, bar of steel and materials for lock and furniture and get a quote to put it into an "in the white guns" this woukld be the firts step, after confirmimg materials costs.Keep us informed, as I am certain most here would be very interested to see this work as long as the quality and authenticity stay strong.My guess is that one would be very lucky to find anyone to bring it in at $500 but let's see what you can do with this idea.

 

[Carteret Kid]

A musket may look like simple product, untill you actually make one. A five foot piece of hard wood in a complex shape costs real money to make. Trees are not free, manhours to cut the and shape wood are not free. A four foot steel tube that is gunpowder safe takes serious machinery and skilled labor.. The flint lock assembly is a complex mechanism to make which includes a heat treated frissen and at least 3 springs. The "economy of scale" keeps the price of flint locks where it is.
Economy of scale means every item you sell must include a part of the start up costs of producing them. That does not include the expenses of making each individual item. There just are not enough flintlocks sold to bring down the productions costs.
Look at these part sets. http://therifleshoppe.com/ They aint cheap.
I am sure they would be happy to sell at a much lower price and own the market, if the demand was there to make it profitable. But business is always about making a profit.
Buy yourself a set of quality parts and make one of your own.

 

Don't let these grumpy old farts get to ya. Most of them are just angry and frustrated with their lives and it's easy to beat up a young kid from behind their keyboards. This forum is no different than most other internet forums. It has it's bullies. It has the 'superior' attitudes. And EVERY ONE of them is smarter than YOU. :rotf: Don't take it personal. It's just part of the disease that is ruining our society.

Wow, a differing opinion is now a disease. :rotf:

Actually, I don't think anyone is trying to squash anyone's dreams or fantasies. Some of us are just offering a dose of reality. No need to paint an opposing point if view in such a bad light. Mike Brooks is speaking from experience, not being "grumpy" at all.

With my tongue in my cheek, I just have to ask.”¦ If I could offer a car for $500 would you guys buy it? It wouldn't be fancy, but it would run. :haha:

 

[Claude Mathis]

I'll take one car and two rifles. Do you guys take PayPal? :wink:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've wondering about something, about a product similar to a kit rifle.
Let's say that company X made a musket kit. A plain musket c 1750 or so, no buttplate, flintlock, 46 inch barrel in 20 bore, very spartan, just like what the average man might have had at the time.
This gun is of fine quality, but needs some simple work to make it your own. The stock is in the raw (sanded smooth but unfinished), the barrel and lock is in the white.

This hypothetical gun comes with a parts warranty for life, and is made right here in the USA, by real Americans, also made in the US. :grin:

Would you buy this kit? Why or why not?

Now answer a second time, but with this in mind - the kit (lock, stock, barrel, rod, single trigger) is only 50 dollars.

For $50? Sure. Though I'd prefer a kit with the barrel already breeched. I'd pay someone $50 to do that and then tie the barrel to a tire and shoot it off a few times - wondering how it could be safe when it should cost $100 or (MUCH) better to be made of a steel that would handle the strain. And I would find a suitable buttplate to add to make it more authentic. Plus I'd LOVE to see the lock that could be put together for $3 or whatever was left after finding a pine stock blank or whatever it could be, though since it is "c.1750" it would have to be walnut or maple and worth more than $50 alone(?), assuming the barrel was black iron pipe or similar to bring the cost in at $50.

 

[mattybock]

the material goal is 12L14 steel, which according to the people here, how know more about metal than me, is what the vast bulk of muzzleloader barrels are made of.

The stock will be of the cheapest hardwood, birch.

I think that perhaps in the long ago there were more birch and oak stocks, as opposed to maple, and that those fancy maple stocked rifle only survived the centuries based on the fact that they are pretty and were rarely shot.
But that's only a guess, I'd have to make a time machine to find out.
I can build my own lathe, but that's a stretch.

 

[Mike Brooks]

So you're going to do all this work to turn out this kit and only charge $20 profit? What do you suppose you'll be making per hour?

 

[Jblk]

I suppose that if a person had a large inventory of tools,the talent to convert raw material into a finished product,inventory of material,money for overhead and worked for nothing you could accomplish your goal.But the end result would be the same thing that happened to the Kaiser Company after the second world war.The supply of your raw materials and the quality of your product would be limiting factor.Probably many of the artist who produce copies of the masters today started out with the idea of saving some money by producing their own weapons.And if all of these things aren't enough you must remember all of the branches of government want their piece of the pie.

 

[matt denison]

You are living in fantasy land. This thread is silly at best and I should know better than respond but there is something so ludicris about it since others are taking the bait.

I figure that if I can make the lock pasts through wet sand casting, and out of iron,can't be done in your back yard, takes special equipment, skill, money. that I can make about 10 parts in one batch.
The basic lock has 15 parts by my reckoning.

A barrel can be made with a lathe, a deep bore drill and a reamer. So far I figure they can only be made one at a time from bar stock steel.You just described about $10,000 minimum in equipment.

The stocks can be made and inletted 5 at a time with a heavy duty band saw, a suitable blanchard lathe and inletting machine. what the heck is an "inletting machine?"

For the doubters, consider how much you are paying for a gun, perhaps $600 or more.won't hardly pay for a decent set of parts at cost

How much of that is pure profit? profit is what pays for the lathe, "inlettin machine" boring bits unless you have a rich uncle

The materials are cheap enough, but desire for profit isdesire for profit is why we get up in the morning, not just to do everyone a favor while we starve to death expensive for all parties.

 

[Dave K]

Mike, you Capitalist bast**d. You are no fun at all. Low income, low tax base and then we have starving illegal aliens. We will think the whole economy is ruined. Have to run and put gas in my tank. Need to sell 3 guns to get a tank full of gas. :rotf:

 

[mattybock]

and why would casting lock parts in sand not work? Provided that they be polished and heat treated afterwards-

 

[mattybock]

What is an inletting machine?
You might know the process of inletting by another name, but I call it inletting.
Well, the M1 garand rifle has a walnut stock, in order to make this stock the stock blank has to be lathed on a blandchard lathe, with will cut it down to a mirror profile.
The stocks are then inletted, meaning slots and recesses are cut for the action, sling swivels and the action.
It used to be all this was done by hand with saws and chisels and gouges, but the demands of the second world war made that unacceptable.

Yes, to buy that equipment is expensive, but I see no reason why I cannot make the tools I need.
After all, someone had to made the first lathe, someone had to make the first inletting machine.

The early tools makers couldn't go to a hardware store.

 

[mattybock]

20 bucks is about the profit margin of those Davis brand pistols (Raven .25 clones) they used to sell, counting in taxes, material cost, etc.

Let's pretend I sell 4 muskets a day, and with that low price, I just might.

That's $80 a day, and around 30,000 a year. I grew up poor, that's to me that's an astronomical amount of money, even after taxes.

I suppose you'd really have to love guns to understand.

 

[Carteret Kid]

This thread would make a good exam for Business school class.
#1 Whats is the total of start up costs for Matty's Muskets inc.
#2 Itemize these costs.
#3 What is the individual production cost for each musket?
#4 What price would these muskets be competitive in the present market?
#5 How many muskets would Matty have to sell to recover start up costs and start aquiring profits?
#6 Does the plausible market demand for his product exceed the answer of question #5?

 

[Mike Brooks]

20 bucks is about the profit margin of those Davis brand pistols (Raven .25 clones) they used to sell, counting in taxes, material cost, etc.

Let's pretend I sell 4 muskets a day, and with that low price, I just might.

That's $80 a day, and around 30,000 a year. I grew up poor, that's to me that's an astronomical amount of money, even after taxes.

I suppose you'd really have to love guns to understand.

You're going to make 4 barrels a day from solid steel bar, carve 4 stocks a day, cast and assemble four locks in one day? How long are you taking for lunch? :rotf:
All that for $80 too. :grin:
Don't forget, you'll be making more than 50 of these a year so the Government will want a 11% manufacturing tax......dam, maybe you could do five kits a day to pay the tax. :thumbsup:
Even if you could actually do any of this you'd get tired of it real fast. :shake:

 

[hanshi]

Even at a cost of $500 ea to build, selling them at $80 ea could still make you rich. Think VOLUME, man, VOLUME! :dead: :rotf:

 

[Carteret Kid]

Compare this to the Virginia Manufactory of Arms in Richmond. Two hundred years ago they had around ONE HUNDRED employees and averaged 9.36 good quality American made muskets per working day at the cost of $ 10.334 each.

 

[54ball]

Do you "Occupy" an area under a bridge?
signed,
Billy G. Gruff

 

[Birddog6]

I think we need a new section on MLF called Dream Theater.....

Here is a thought...... :hmm: You Actually MAKE SOMETHING, I mean ANY PART OF THIS KIT you are wanting to make for free...... You Make it & get out of LaLa land.... so you can post with some actual knowledge on actually doing Something yourself & what is involved in doing it.....

Keith Lisle

 

[necchi]

and why would casting lock parts in sand not work? Provided that they be polished and heat treated afterwards-

And that's the point, it's pretty obvious you have never polished even a single sand cast piece of anything.
It's takes hours (HOURS) to polish even soft brass when begining with any of the many sand cast parts avaiable from current suppliers.

Like Keith said, make just ONE part, it won't matter which one, just any single part of your kit into what you would consider finished for the kit. Make a single barrel,, make your lathe,, make a single hammer for the lock,,
:idunno: