How Much Powder Is Too Much

[Britsmoothy]

What ever. Did you ever wonder why the old time target shooters used coarser powders? Probably not....

What ever.
Did you ever wonder if you can supply evidence absolutely that all old time target shooters used course powder?
Probably not.....

 

[hanshi]

Accuracy beats velocity every time. If you can't hit it right, you can't bring it down.

 

[Zonie]

You need to think about it in both ways. Any charge of BP converts 44% of its weight into gas, leaving 56% of it as solids. So, Zonie's 60 grain charge would have to push only an extra 33.6 grains out, not the full 60 grains. The other 26.4 grains is what does the pushing.

Spence

Actually, it doesn't make any difference whether we are talking about the weight of the powder before or after it burns.
Accelerating a weight of 60 grains of gas or 60 grains of solid material is still accelerating 60 grains so the net effect on recoil is the same.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Zonie, is it like the old trick question, "Which weighs more a ton of lead or a ton of feathers?"

 

[George]

Accelerating a weight of 60 grains of gas or 60 grains of solid material is still accelerating 60 grains so the net effect on recoil is the same.

You are right, of course.

Mea culpa.

Spence

 

[Col. Batguano]

I think you guys are talking about recoil as what you feel, and there can be differences based on the pressure spike of the load. Let's hypothetically say that a 70 gr. charge of FFFg produces a MV of 1800 fps, and, a 90 gr. charge of Fg produces the same. Will the Fg load kick more because of the increased weight of the charge? Probably not. In fact, it will probably "feel" softer because of the slower burn rate.

 

[longcruise]

An advantage to using 3f is that the immediate pressure spike will better and more quickly upset the bullet and therefore more quickly obturate the bore. Therefore, gas passage around the bullet is reduced or possibly even eliminated and leading is less likely or possibly eliminated.

 

[SDSmlf]

Actually, it doesn't make any difference whether we are talking about the weight of the powder before or after it burns.
Accelerating a weight of 60 grains of gas or 60 grains of solid material is still accelerating 60 grains so the net effect on recoil is the same.

See this reminder a lot with smokeless reloading data, a fad that we seem to be going through.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Did you ever wonder why the old time target shooters used coarser powders?

I've often been curious about that...did they do that because that was a choice OR because that was what they could get? It apparently was the situation from 1880 on into the 20th century. Yet today it appears to not be the same situation, and I don't think the powder today is somehow superior or inferior to the product at the turn of the 19th century to the 20th century. I also noted that they liked to make duplex loads in some cases by adding a few grains of smokeless powder at the breech first, followed by a 1Fg or 2Fg main charge as the total charge then burned cleaner.
(source The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts)

LD

 

[SDSmlf]

An advantage to using 3f is that the immediate pressure spike will better and more quickly upset the bullet and therefore more quickly obturate the bore. Therefore, gas passage around the bullet is reduced or possibly even eliminated and leading is less likely or possibly eliminated.

One of the discussion points I’ve heard from the duplex load crowd that I just don’t buy yet when using black powder. Did a test years ago with paper patched bullets. Tried FF, FFF and FFFF under a 400 grain 45 caliber paper patched slug and all had what I would call poor accuracy, until I put a felt wad over the powder and then they all had tightened up groups.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I think you guys are talking about recoil as what you feel, and there can be differences based on the pressure spike of the load. Let's hypothetically say that a 70 gr. charge of FFFg produces a MV of 1800 fps, and, a 90 gr. charge of Fg produces the same. Will the Fg load kick more because of the increased weight of the charge? Probably not. In fact, it will probably "feel" softer because of the slower burn rate.

On the other hand the manual written in 1800 for the British Army Riflemen attributed "disagreeable recoil" not to a heavy charge (they were using .62 caliber Baker rifles), but to a "fast" twist rate in the barrel. What was described was the torque applied to the shooter's face and shoulder when launching the ball. The Baker was a 1:120 twist rate btw, and did not have this "disagreeable recoil", but the author thought the American rifles were known to have such.

LD

 

[Spikebuck]

You need to think about it in both ways. Any charge of BP converts 44% of its weight into gas, leaving 56% of it as solids. So, Zonie's 60 grain charge would have to push only an extra 33.6 grains out, not the full 60 grains. The other 26.4 grains is what does the pushing.
Spence

First let me say it's good to hear from our friend SPENCE again! I haven't been seeing many posts and certainly miss Spence's added knowledge and viewpoints!

Now for my question. Spence states that ANY charge of BP converts to 44% gas, 56% solids. Is this true across grades....for instance...does a finer powder, like 3F have a different % split than 2F? Or, does 2F Swiss have a different % split than 2F Goex? I ask because some powders are "hotter" or more powerful....is it this split of the burnt powder between gas and solids that changes and makes the difference. Swiss is usually a lot cleaner burning...does that mean it converts more to gas and less to solids?

 

[Freedom]

We are a long ways from wasting powder with our modern sedated ideas and bedsheet nonsense.

Sir Walter Baker had a 16 bore rifle made by Gibbs. He wrote about this rifle in his book titled "Wild Beasts and their Ways"

The rifle was 21 pounds with a 36 inch barrel. His load was 438grains of powder behind a 1750grain conical. (!)

Have a 6 inch, 12 bore Howdah pistol... and more powder equates to more velocity.. even with only 2 inches of barrel left in front of the ball! Hehehehe

But recoil is extreme so until I find myself setting on an elephant in India, 25-50gr is about all the fun I'm willing to endure with it...

 

[tenngun]

Accuracy beats velocity every time. If you can't hit it right, you can't bring it down.

Taint it the truth.
D Boon Kilt a bar on this tree 17~~
Round ball almost wiped out eastern black bear, eastern elk and eastern buff long before conicals became common.
Loaded for bear hurts your shoulder a lot more then aids killing game. No animal is deader from a big conical vs a ‘light’ round ball. Nor is it deader from a 120 grain charge then a 60 grain.
You ain’t ever going to turn a ml in to a modern breech loader. Think archery on steroids with a ml. Somewhere around you hundred yard mark is your top range, less is more. Get close, hit your mark, fill your larder.
If you can hit a paper plate at a hundred yards a 90 grain charge and conical will do it in. Smaller target hit rate even better, and out weighs a few ft/lbs.

 

[fourbore]

You need to think about it in both ways. Any charge of BP converts 44% of its weight into gas, leaving 56% of it as solids. So, Zonie's 60 grain charge would have to push only an extra 33.6 grains out, not the full 60 grains. The other 26.4 grains is what does the pushing.

Spence

This is incorrect, the fuel that was converted to expanding gas is ALSO pushed out the barrel. Mass is never lost it only changes shape or phase. If not a rocket ship or missile would not move.

 

[tenngun]

Sir Walter Raleigh introduced pipe smoking to Queen Elizabeth by wagering he could weigh smoke. He won his bet by carefully weighing a pipeful of tobacco then smoking that pipe. He then weighed the ash, and argued the difference in weight had to the weight of the smoke. The Queen paid off. She said she had seen many men turn gold in to smoke but only Raleigh could turn smoke in to gold.
If you put 70 grains of powder in 70 grains come out, save what’s smeared on the bore walls.

 

[Col. Batguano]

That was an interesting comment about the twist rate producing more torque, and thus, more felt recoil. I have never paid attention to whether our barrels are right hand or left hand twist.

Can anybody do the calculation on how much torque is produced? Let's take a normal sort of a load; 195 gr. 495" 50 cal PRB and a 5 grain patch or 200 grain load (the patch has mass and will be spinning too) exiting at 1500 fps out of a 1:66 right hand twist barrel out of an 8 pound gun. 2.00" drop at the comb with sights 1" above the bore axis. Assume full engagement of the rifling so a ball rotation speed of 273 rotations per second, and time of acceleration to that speed of .01 seconds.

If you can do the calculation the formula would be neat to see.

An intuitive comment would seem to suggest that a faster twist might produce more felt recoil because the ball will produce more resistance to being accelerated to a faster spin. The Italians in their Carcano rifles used gain twist rifling to cut down on barrel heating and thus, lower the chamber pressures.

 

[fourbore]

More food for thought. If a bullet leaves the muzzle at say 1000 fps, image how fast the gas is moving behind the bullet. I mean, once the bullet clear the muzzle the blast of gas released has to be a lot faster than 1000fps. My gut feeling and sense from shooting, is extra powder produces added recoil out of proportion to the weight of the powder.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I guarantee you that adding 50 grains of powder will produce a lot more recoil than adding 50 grains of dead lead.

 

[Freedom]

I guarantee you that adding 50 grains of powder will produce a lot more recoil than adding 50 grains of dead lead.

Momentum is Mass x Velocity..(P=mv).. So 50 grains more powder would increase both mass 'and velocity.

50 grains of lead will only increase mass, while at the same time reducing velocity.