How Much Powder Is Too Much

[7shortmag]

T/C Renegade, 54 cal., custom 32" barrel, 1-22 twist, custom 340 gr. conical bullet

I have been shooting 90 gr. of loose fff powder for hunting.

Had a friend fire it last week after dark while I looked for muzzle flash..... nothing. All I saw was the pan flash.

My scenario is that I want to drive this bullet as hard as I can for hunting, intending to hunt Black Bear with it next year. No sense in fiilling the barrel full of powder and have it blow out then end and waste powder.

We have fresh snow right now. I remmeber someone telling me years ago about looking for powder on top of the snow. Is this reliable?

 

[dave951]

There is a limit that bp can drive a projectile. At 90g, you're about as high as you can go. If the load is accurate, I suggest you work on marksmanship.

 

[Sparkitoff]

If you have a 1:22" ROT as stated then you probably couldn't use any more velocity with that projectile. It needs to fill the lands and grooves and rotate without trying to "skip". 90 grains propellent and a 340 grain conical in .54 is a good combo for black bear and will get it done. As far as the snow thing, we don't have it much where I winter. The one time I tried the experiment out of curiosity the same amount of "stuff" was on the snow whether I used 60 grains or 100 grains so based on that one experience I think the exercise is unreliable for determining anything.

 

[bang]

What dave says. You can't produce pressures that modern synthetics achive with black powder shooting front packers. There is a cut off where performance increase just isn't worth the powder. Shoot what drives accuracy. You can drive that .54 as hard as you want but if you don't have placement capability of both gun and shooter your rolling dice.

 

[Britsmoothy]

When it starts hurting your pocket.

 

[EC121]

All the powder is burned in the barrel or in the flash at the muzzle. What hits the snow is the particulate/ash from the burned charcoal and other fouling from the burn. You would have to pick it up and analyze it to see if it is unburned powder. Your load has about reached the area of diminishing returns, i.e., 10% more powder doesn't make 10% more velocity. Shooting over a chronograph is the only way to know what is happening.

 

[Dphar1950]

T/C Renegade, 54 cal., custom 32" barrel, 1-22 twist, custom 340 gr. conical bullet

I have been shooting 90 gr. of loose fff powder for hunting.

Had a friend fire it last week after dark while I looked for muzzle flash..... nothing. All I saw was the pan flash.

My scenario is that I want to drive this bullet as hard as I can for hunting, intending to hunt Black Bear with it next year. No sense in fiilling the barrel full of powder and have it blow out then end and waste powder.

We have fresh snow right now. I remmeber someone telling me years ago about looking for powder on top of the snow. Is this reliable?

None of this is going to tell you anything. First off FFF is a little fast for a comical and I tried the shooting over sheet stuff when I was a kid and got to 65 gr vol of FFF in a 32 with a patched RB and found nothing shooting over sheets in a barn. I think that Brockway was BSing Ned Roberts. There is a lot of info in Roberts book but there is questionable stuff as well. But it requires a lot of experimentation to sort it out.
Flash? Do a slow-mo video of firing at night. Its just about impossible to get no muzzle flash with BP given the amount of hot gas and solids that exit the muzzle (something that can be seen when shooting over white sheets as opposed to unburned powder). You don't need the power you are trying to generate. A PRB with the same charge will pass completely through a BB with lung shots and surely kill just as well if your barrel was not over twisted. The myth of the short comical being so wonderful has been created by the company that started the "modern" ML bullet thing and gun writers at the time who had not the slightest idea what they were talking about but "knew" the round ball would not work. The abject failures reported with the Maxi-ball resulted in the Maxi-hunter being created. Then all the other companies the jumped on the bandwagon when MLing was really hot and before the BPCR craze kicked in. I really wish everyone who hunts with ML would read "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" by Forsythe. Or perhaps some of the writings like that of Sir Samuel Baker trying a conical in his 6 bore "stopping" rifle in Africa. Where he says it got him into such "scrapes" with Elephant he stopped using it and went back to the RB.

 

[Col. Batguano]

The Davenport formula will give you a really good ballpark for the maximum load for efficient consumption. Here are a couple of old threads on the subject.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/davenport-formula.60217/
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/davenport-formula.47124/

The longer your barrel / bigger the bore, the more powder that can be consumed during the barrel dwell of ball travel. It is zeroed for FFg powder, and a moderately tight PRB, but really started around large bores and ML'ing artillery. I THINK it is done for a cap lock / friction primer and assumes minimal gas escape at the breech. You will have to increase the amount for flint / pan flash ignited guns, as, there is a goodly amount of gas that escapes through the vent hole.

 

[Grenadier1758]

It's too much powder when the bruise on your shoulder lasts longer than a week.

 

[Outwater]

I have a T/C renegade in 54 cal, and T/C recommended no more than 120 grains of FF I have used RB and maxi hunters conicals on deer, and gotten pass thru with both. I always used 100 grains of ff. BP will not necessarily give better speed with more powder- and the maximum accuracy load will be well below maximum load. I liked the maxi ball only because it loaded easily and simply. It will certainly do for a Black Bear. I have had deer flip when hit- so the legs were then facing away from me. Nothing like putting one down instantly!

 

[7shortmag]

None of this is going to tell you anything. First off FFF is a little fast for a comical and I tried the shooting over sheet stuff when I was a kid and got to 65 gr vol of FFF in a 32 with a patched RB and found nothing shooting over sheets in a barn. I think that Brockway was BSing Ned Roberts. There is a lot of info in Roberts book but there is questionable stuff as well. But it requires a lot of experimentation to sort it out.
Flash? Do a slow-mo video of firing at night. Its just about impossible to get no muzzle flash with BP given the amount of hot gas and solids that exit the muzzle (something that can be seen when shooting over white sheets as opposed to unburned powder). You don't need the power you are trying to generate. A PRB with the same charge will pass completely through a BB with lung shots and surely kill just as well if your barrel was not over twisted. The myth of the short comical being so wonderful has been created by the company that started the "modern" ML bullet thing and gun writers at the time who had not the slightest idea what they were talking about but "knew" the round ball would not work. The abject failures reported with the Maxi-ball resulted in the Maxi-hunter being created. Then all the other companies the jumped on the bandwagon when MLing was really hot and before the BPCR craze kicked in. I really wish everyone who hunts with ML would read "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" by Forsythe. Or perhaps some of the writings like that of Sir Samuel Baker trying a conical in his 6 bore "stopping" rifle in Africa. Where he says it got him into such "scrapes" with Elephant he stopped using it and went back to the RB.

I realize fff is a bit fast.The reason I use it is because I ans use it in the pan if I lose my pan charging tool.

 

[azmntman]

It wont ever be a 30-06. Load for the best group and hit the poor ol thing where ya aim. More powder will mess up the group and wont kill any faster with the majority of BP projectiles.

always always empty bowels before a bear hunt too.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I realize fff is a bit fast.The reason I use it is because I ans use it in the pan if I lose my pan charging tool.

Fff is not" a bit fast" at all. It's perfectly ok.

 

[SDSmlf]

I realize fff is a bit fast.The reason I use it is because I ans use it in the pan if I lose my pan charging tool.

A bit fast as opposed to a bit slow? If it’s accurate it’s just right. There is no Goldielocks and the Three Bears rule we have to concern ourselves with. FFF is pretty much what I use in everything from 32 to 62 caliber rifles and 20 and 12 gauge shotguns. Makes things simpler, at least for me. I have F, FF and FFFF to try, but once I get a load I like with FFF I usually stick with it.

 

[PastorB]

Take it from a guy with 40+ years of muzzleloading experience, who has shot many rifles and handguns with barrel lengths from 3" to 48", and who owns a chronograph. Once you get beyond 90 grains, you are getting virtually nothing of value, velocity wise, and getting the tar kicked out of yourself also. With a .54 conical (425 great plains bullet) and 90 grains, you get about 1300fps, a little more out of a long barrel, little less out of a short barrel. It will also knock the fillings from your teeth. Going above that is just asking for abuse, for no real gain. 120 grains might give you 1350fps (again chronographed), but it will definitely give you a sore shoulder. I use about 70 grains in my .54's, with a conical and PRB's, and get about 1250fps and 1700fps respectively. It will go plumb through most any game animal you hit, and the next one standing behind it. How much "power" does a fellow need? Can't speak about inlines and modern black powder substitutes.

 

[Zonie]

One of the things some people don't understand is, although there is more recoil due to the velocity a ball or bullet gains when the powder charge is increased, there is also more recoil because of the added weight of the powder.

If the weight of a roundball is 180 grains and there is a 60 grain powder load under it, the total amount of material that is being ejected out of the barrel when the gun fires is 180 grains + 60 grains = 240 grains.

If they jack up their powder load to 100 grains, the total amount of material being ejected is 180 grains + 100 grains = 280 grains.

Adding this weight increase along with the effect of the increase in velocity can make a big difference in the total recoil of the gun.

 

[Juice Jaws]

When it starts hurting your pocket.

Or shoulder

 

[Baxter]

One of the things some people don't understand is, although there is more recoil due to the velocity a ball or bullet gains when the powder charge is increased, there is also more recoil because of the added weight of the powder.

If the weight of a roundball is 180 grains and there is a 60 grain powder load under it, the total amount of material that is being ejected out of the barrel when the gun fires is 180 grains + 60 grains = 240 grains.

If they jack up their powder load to 100 grains, the total amount of material being ejected is 180 grains + 100 grains = 280 grains.

Adding this weight increase along with the effect of the increase in velocity can make a big difference in the total recoil of the gun.

Zonie, that is an interesting fact/concept, I never thought of the powder load with that perspective; I always thought of the burnt powder in terms of heat and gas, not weight.

 

[George]

I never thought of the powder load with that perspective; I always thought of the burnt powder in terms of heat and gas, not weight.

You need to think about it in both ways. Any charge of BP converts 44% of its weight into gas, leaving 56% of it as solids. So, Zonie's 60 grain charge would have to push only an extra 33.6 grains out, not the full 60 grains. The other 26.4 grains is what does the pushing.

Spence

 

[Dphar1950]

Fff is not" a bit fast" at all. It's perfectly ok.

What ever. Did you ever wonder why the old time target shooters used coarser powders? Probably not....