How much powder in pan?

[mr.flintlock]

Different amounts for different guns. Experiment. Most of the time I like to put as much powder as I can WITHOUT covering the touch hole. Some of my guns have deeper pans than others. by filing up to but not over the touch hole I get fast and positive ignition. Once again, Experiment with your own guns and see which method works best for you.

 

[hanshi]

:thumbsup: Zactly!

 

[David W.]

I think the most important thing to remember is heat rises. Do not put so much powder in the pan as to cover the vent hole. 3 to 4 grains is adequate for most flintlocks.

 

[kentucky bucky]

... the fastest ignition by a very few microseconds ...

And in this fast-paced world, you know how important that can be.

Sorry, it just stuck me funny that we're talking about 18th century technology and we're worried about microseconds. One microsecond = .001 milliseconds. :wink:

We do tend to think too much. :hmm:

 

[Twowithone]

You don't need much remember the more powder in the pan the longer time for ignition. The photo with the powder in the pan for me that's way to much powder.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

You don't need much remember the more powder in the pan the longer time for ignition. The photo with the powder in the pan for me that's way to much powder.

I've heard this a number of times, but I have never seen anyone site evidence. Can anyone provide evidence for this theory that is NOT based on human senses?

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Twowithone]

It isn't evidence per say its what works in my 3 ml.Your waiting for a full pan to burn instead of a 1/4 pan that's going too do the same job send a flame in the flashhole to ignite the main charge to sent your prb down range.

 

[nchawkeye]

Huh????

That touch hole takes the first flame that touches it!!

Now, if your touch hole is too low and located down in the pan then I guess the powder has to burn down to the touch hole...

As I mentioned earlier, a properly positioned touch hole is actually above the pan and covered by the heal of the frizzen when shut..So it is above the level of the powder even if the pan is filled to the top...

Heat rises, ignition is instantaneous !!!!

 

[Larry Pletcher]

It isn't evidence per say its what works in my 3 ml.Your waiting for a full pan to burn instead of a 1/4 pan that's going too do the same job send a flame in the flashhole to ignite the main charge to sent your prb down range.

2with1,
My take would be a little different. My theory is that when the amount of fire/heat required is reached, the barrel will ignite whether the charge is small or large. If more powder is used than is needed, the barrel won't wait to ignite until the pan is finished. When the critical level of fire/heat is reached, the barrel ignites even if the pan continues to burn.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[David W.]

I don't need to add my thoughts after Pletch spoke!

It isn't evidence per say its what works in my 3 ml.Your waiting for a full pan to burn instead of a 1/4 pan that's going too do the same job send a flame in the flashhole to ignite the main charge to sent your prb down range.

2with1,
My take would be a little different. My theory is that when the amount of fire/heat required is reached, the barrel will ignite whether the charge is small or large. If more powder is used than is needed, the barrel won't wait to ignite until the pan is finished. When the critical level of fire/heat is reached, the barrel ignites even if the pan continues to burn.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[M. De Land]

I think the most variability is in the continuing change of the spark shower intensity and direction from the ever wearing flint face against the frizzen. The flint is ever changing its length as it wears, thus presenting a different angle of impact as the swing arch shortens and edge profile changes.
This seems to be evident in locks with marginal spark production from what I have observed while tuning a cock serpentine angle of impact.
When the flint is new and sharp sparks fly every where but as they wear down and produce less spark the concentration seems to move ahead of the pan center, from what I can see.
That's the main reason I think the more pan powder one has the more surface area there is to light and the more reliability and speed of the ignition sequence.
I noticed in Larry's very excellent motion pictures of spark and ignition sequences that there is a rather obvious delay from the time the sparks hit the powder until the embers raise the temperature enough to initiate the flash.It would seem the more embers that hit and the larger the impact area, the faster the ignition. Mike D.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Well said, MD,
In some of my earliest tests, about 60% of total ignition time occurs after the flint edge stops moving.

Your comment about flint wear and spark reduction is real. The building of the pan ignition is dependent on the number of sparks. Imagine a pan ignition with 3 sparks compared to 15 sparks. It isn't hard to see the later building the ignition faster. Jim Chambers drew my attention to this.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[roundball]

As a general comment to add regarding the notion of heat rising"...my personal opinion is that heat rising is not a factor at all...because it's eclipsed by the energetic fire event of the pan flash.

Remember that in reality the pan ignition event is happening in micro or milliseconds...and the igniting flash of pan flame is taking place under it's own self generated pressure, billowing outward / upward in all directions, expanding outward / upward simultaneously...its not 'heat rising'...it's heat and flame being driven up from the pressure of the burning powder / expanding gases.

And main charge ignition occurs "during" the event of the raging pan fire expansion...not after the pan fire has subsided.

 

[David W.]

Pletch ran some video's once that proved it. I wish I had save them.

Do it again, Pletch!

As a general comment to add regarding the notion of heat rising"...my personal opinion is that heat rising is not a factor at all...because it's eclipsed by the energetic fire event of the pan flash.

Remember that in reality the pan ignition event is happening in micro or milliseconds...and the igniting flash of pan flame is taking place under it's own self generated pressure, billowing outward, expanding outward in each / every / all directions simultaneously, including 'up'...its not 'heat rising'...it's heat and flame being driven up from the pressure of the buring powder / expanding gases.

And main charge ignition occurs "during" the event of the raging pan fire expansion...not after the pan fire has subsided.

 

[M. De Land]

When I saw that flint locks could be fired upside down ( a eureka moment for me)I was rather awe stuck and had no idea it could be so.
This would certainly seem to support your premise of why gas expansion is the igniting force through the flash hole, rather than the physical placement of the pan powder at the time.
As soon as the pan lifts gravity is pulling the pan powder out of it's bed and the sparks have not yet raise the powder to the ignition temperature. Mike D.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

When I saw that flint locks could be fired upside down ( a eureka moment for me)I was rather awe stuck and had no idea it could be so.
This would certainly seem to support your premise of why gas expansion is the igniting force through the flash hole, rather than the physical placement of the pan powder at the time.
As soon as the pan lifts gravity is pulling the pan powder out of it's bed and the sparks have not yet raise the powder to the ignition temperature. Mike D.

Mike,
Funny you should mention up side down. After watching the Siler in slow motion up side down, I wondered how far the powder could fall before ignition took place. Using ignition time of the lock, I used the physics falling body formula. The powder has time to fall less than 2 mm. So the sparks are being driven up into the falling powder. My gut says that a good lock might be faster upside down.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Twowithone]

Just watched leatherwoods productions on muzzleloading on youtube. Last weekend for muzzy up in Clairion co. He shot at a deer and you wouldn't believe the hangtime he shows it in slow motion.

 

[Zonie]

Sure I would. (Believe the hangtime).

I realize it was in slow motion and I also realize that everybody on the muzzleloading forum has a flintlock that fires faster than a 30-06. :grin:

But, for the people who are not forum members, flintlocks can take quite a bit of time to actually fire. I also suspect that if one was peeking at most of our members they would occasionally see their flintlocks take as much as a half second to fire after the pan flashes.
Not every time, but enough times to keep it interesting. :grin:

That's why people who are really good at shooting targets with their flintlocks are also really good at following thru with their shot.

They get a good aim, pull the trigger and then keep it on target while they let the flintlock do its thing. Some time after it has fired, they quit aiming and lower their gun while they look thru the smoke to see if the shot hit home.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Snipped . . . . .
Sure I would. (Believe the hangtime).

. . . I also suspect that if one was peeking at most of our members they would occasionally see their flintlocks take as much as a half second to fire after the pan flashes.
Not every time, but enough times to keep it interesting. :grin:

That's why people who are really good at shooting targets with their flintlocks are also really good at following thru with their shot.

They get a good aim, pull the trigger and then keep it on target while they let the flintlock do its thing.

I agree that all of us have experienced hangfires and observed them when shooting with others. I don't see them in testing because I can use many steps in cleaning, flint care, etc that even a competition shooter does not or cannot use. (Examples are multiple cleaning steps and compressed air through the vent.) In testing my job is to eliminate all variables. My job is to provide perfect conditions for every ignition. Hangfires still rarely happen even though I try diligently to remove them all.

However all that is lab-type conditions and NOT the real world we all shoot in. In the real world I have hangfires like everyone else. I believe by now that hangfires are caused by poor gun care.

The great competition shooter is very at good shooting, but also very good at maintaining his gun. His gun does sound like a .22 firing, and likely all his shots do. I feel his gun-handling contributes to his success on his targets.

Let me point out only one thing that I see at Friendship regarding gun care. I have never heard a top shooter try to see how many shots he gets from one flint. He changes before he needs to -- if there is ANY indication that the flint is dull, it gets replaced. And----

Then there is me. I've tried to milk a flint as long as I can. So what if I had knap my flint 3 times, reposition it- I got 40 shots out of my flint. At the Woodswalk at Friendship, I normally maintain my gun quite well. But the last time I had a hangfire, I knew what I did wrong. It was my fault and not the gun.

The last testing I did on hangfires is at the following link:
Link

Regards,
Pletch

 

[M. De Land]

Larry, how do you feel about back pressure alone,minus routinely picking the vent, at keeping the vent clear of fouling and producing more consistency?
I use a soft black wire, steel pick with a hemisphere on the end for a vent clearing tool to keep the vent diameter uniform shot to shot but have some concern that it will eventually enlarge the hole even know it is a good deal softer than the barrel steel.
I know erosion will eventually do the same thing anyway so it may be moot.
It is left full in the vent, terminating on the off side barrel wall,the barrel charged and the ball seated with it in place.
It also acts as a safety in keeping the hole plugged in case of and accidental hammer drop.
The thinking is to leave a pocket in the main charge the size of the pick to facilitate flash area,when it is removed before charging the pan.
There has not been enough time or shots to this point to decide if any advantage is to be had over conventional methods from the procedure described but am always interested in counter thought in the search for progress. MD