Flintlocks at Local Shop

[Tacitus]

IMHO, one excellent gun will bring more satisfaction than a room full of mediocre guns. My only rifle for nearly thirty years was a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle. The purchase price stung at the time but long ago stopped stinging. It still serves me well, and never once have I had buyer's remorse. A Kibler is hard to beat for price to value ratio and are occasionally offered for sale on this site for sensible prices.
"When you buy quality you only cry once."

 

[Grenadier1758]

For the price I'd grab both of the TC's and walk away smiling. That's roughly half what they go for in good shape. If you don't like them as flintlocks, you can make your money back and then some or easily convert them to percussion without any detrimental modifications or expense.

Not so sure on the comment on the price.

There is a CVA Mountain Rifle in the for sale forum for $345, a T/C Renegade with a premium barrel for $540 and other offerings that make @MartyHaag1206's gun shop prices seem quite high. The Pedersoli Blue Ridge one that is kind of sort of priced close to right.

The only real difference in the T/C breech between the flint lock and the percussion lock is that the percussion seat is not there and a touch hole liner is drilled into the flash channel for the T/C chambered breech.

 

[Muddly]

IF it's possible to go wrong with a Renegade, and my own experience says it REALLY hard to, it won't be by much.
If the bores are good, you'll have a superb rifle. Sometimes the locks need a little love, they're production not custom after all, but they're not hard to work on. And under $400?!
JUMP! I paid $500 for each of mine. I have two flintlock. 50s.
Here in Pennsylvania, a good Renegade doesn't sit long...
Good fortune to ya!

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Not so sure on the comment on the price.

There is a CVA Mountain Rifle in the for sale forum for $345, a T/C Renegade with a premium barrel for $540 and other offerings that make @MartyHaag1206's gun shop prices seem quite high. The Pedersoli Blue Ridge one that is kind of sort of priced close to right.

The only real difference in the T/C breech between the flint lock and the percussion lock is that the percussion seat is not there and a touch hole liner is drilled into the flash channel for the T/C chambered breech.

The last sentence he said the TC's are 300 and 325, that's a good deal below what most price them at in the classifieds. Was not making reference to the pricing on any of the others.

The chambered breech/patent breech of the TC flintlocks does not have the long angled flash channel like the percussions do. There is another thread a few days old now where some of us had this discussion with pictures to back up. It is similar in design to the Pedersoli, Investarms, Green Mountain, etc.. Perhaps its biggest potential flaw was it had rather narrow powder column as compared to the others.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

The TC flintlocks have a different breach design from the percussion ones. The bad reputation those have is from the early production and mostly revolves around the geometry of the original cock. Otherwise, they are on par with any other mass production flintlock.

The basic internal design is the same the only difference is the snail is replaced with a threaded hole for a touch hole liner. same with the CVA the drum is replaced with a touch hole liner

 

[MartyHaag1206]

A lot of conflicting comments. I dont have the time to throw together a kit rifle right now. I also want to build a rifle kit from Kibler in the future set to what I want. The wood the caliber configuration I would like is not available here on the forum already done and I not having any experience with kits will not assemble one in time for hunting season. That and I want to buy something cheap to get me started as I would hate to buy an expensive kit flintlock and then hate flintlocks and have to sell at a loss. I would rather buy a cheap production model and learn on it and then graduate and either keep or sell the production rifle. I see a lot of comments on locks, chambered breechs and springs. I wont be competition shooting with the rifles. I just need a rifle that I can stuff powder, patch and ball down through the top and when I get a deer lined up in the sights pull the trigger and successfully remove the powder patch and ball and send it into my target. Are the CVA locks and T/C locks so bad they cant reliably do that ? Like I stated one of the CVA rifles is unfired so it hasnt ever been used and the other T/C and CVA rifles arent that bad off. The Pedersolis are also both unfired but I see no one has any experience with them besides a few with the blue ridge rifle. I will look through the classifieds as @Grenadier1758 stated and see what is for sale on the forum. I like buyin in person though as you can physically hold the rifle and see it in your hands before you buy. Thanks for all the replies everyone.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

I have been looking for a good flintlock rifle for a few months now. I decided I wanted to start on a flintlock. That being said I am looking at a "starter" flintlock. Something to get my foot in the door. Practice my aim and something not too pricey. Eventually I want to get a longrifle but for now a cheaper alternative will do. My local outdoor shop got a few in off of an estate sale. They are all at or under $600 which is where I set my price cap for a starter rifle. Two of them are CVA Mountain Rifles. 32" Barrel, Flintlock and .50 caliber. Rifles look amazing and were well taken care of. One of them is still in its original box. The next two are Thompson Center Renegades .54 caliber, 27" barrels in great condition. Some scratches throughout the stocks but nothing that will keep them from doing their job. They are Flintlock as well. The Last two are a .54 Caliber Pedersoli Hawken and a .54 Caliber Pedersoli Blue Ridge. Both are flintlock and practically new. The seller who has them up on consignment states that neither that CVA in the box and the Blue Ridge have been fired. The Renegades and the one CVA were the families hunting rifles for years and have been fired a lot. The Pedersoli Hawken though belonged to the sellers father and he doesnt know it if was fired or not but it doesnt seem that it was. So there are 4 .54s and two .50s. The .50 caliber CVAs are the cheapest followes by the .54 Thompson Centers and the most expensive being the Blue Ridge and Hawken by Pedersoli. Anybody have personal experience with these rifles both hunting and target shooting ? I have trouble seeing some muzzleloader fixed rear sights which put me off from a Mortimer being sold here on the forum and a Traditions Kentucky being sold at this local shop I went to. Anybody have a preference in Caliber ? I picked up some 2F and 3F Goex from this shop 2lbs of each. Owner said it was the best powder for flintlocks. I dont have any balls, patches or flint lock tools/ ball moulds so I am starting from scratch, ground up. Thanks for all the replies. If it helps whatever rifle I buy will be used on White Tail deer only.
EDIT: The Pedersoli rifles are at the top of the price cap at $475 for the Hawken and $575 for the Blue Ridge. The CVA in the box unfired is $350, CVA used is $250. Both Thompson Centers are $325 and $300.

If those CVA mountain rifles are NIB @350$ maybe they are old enough to have Sharon barrels.
You could resell for double.
If all you want to do is hunt deer any of those you mentioned will work just fine.
You don't need a 1500$ rifle to kill a deer once a year
BPBRELOADING FFL

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

The basic internal design is the same the only difference is the snail is replaced with a threaded hole for a touch hole liner. same with the CVA the drum is replaced with a touch hole liner

This is not how the TC flint breaches were made but I still think we are on the same page. They are still a patent breech just not this.

 

[Brokennock]

That and I want to buy something cheap to get me started as I would hate to buy an expensive kit flintlock and then hate flintlocks

Here's the rub,,,,, if you get a flintlock with a cheap lock,,,, you will most likely end up hating flintlocks.


The chambered breaches can cause reliability issues, just need to keep that chamber clear/clean. Generally shouldn't effect that 1st shot,,,, like the one at a deer. Some chambered breaches are of a more reliable design than others, but a flash hole going straight through to the powder chambered at a 90° angle to the bore shouldn't be a problem.

 

[CTShooter]

The only flintlock I’ve had the pleasure of shooting is Brokennock’s, it has left me with a definite want for nice flintlock.

 

[MartyHaag1206]

If those CVA mountain rifles are NIB @350$ maybe they are old enough to have Sharon barrels.
You could resell for double.
If all you want to do is hunt deer any of those you mentioned will work just fine.
You don't need a 1500$ rifle to kill a deer once a year
BPBRELOADING FFL

Are Sharon Barrels good ?

 

[MartyHaag1206]

Here's the rub,,,,, if you get a flintlock with a cheap lock,,,, you will most likely end up hating flintlocks.


The chambered breaches can cause reliability issues, just need to keep that chamber clear/clean. Generally shouldn't effect that 1st shot,,,, like the one at a deer. Some chambered breaches are of a more reliable design than others, but a flash hole going straight through to the powder chambered at a 90° angle to the bore shouldn't be a problem.

I would think that in the case of NIB rifle that has never been fired the lock should be ok. Do you mean the locks are cheap as in they are terrible from factory or that they are terrible after years and years of use ?

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

Are Sharon Barrels good ?

My Father bought the first "production flintlock" in my family. He bought a Thompson Center .54 Renegade. He bought that rifle in 1982 when he was 10. My grandfather at the time was hunting an old 1808 Contract Musket with a paper thing barrel. In 1983 he bought a CVA Mountain Rifle in .50 caliber since he liked the longer barrel for his eyes which his sight was terrible back then as it is now. He shot many a deer with that rifle. It was flintlock, with a Douglass barrel. That rifle never gave him issues. The only time that rifle gave him a problem was when he shot a metal barrel and the round ball came back and grazed his left arm..... he loved it and he even went out and bought a percussion model and threw a Miroku Brass Tube Scope on it cause it looked like a Civil War sharpshooter rifle....lol. My buddy had a Pedersoli Hawken and hated it. The Blue Ridge I have no experience with but they are fine rifles. If I had to choose a rifle is would be the unfired CVA Mountain Rifle. .50 caliber is enough to take down a white tail. My first deer I took was with a .44 caliber Flintlock Minuteman rifle by Numrich Arms (weighed a ton). .50 caliber has the most selection on shelves with .45, .54 and .36 following behind with .44 floating in that mix. My grandfather will be taking out his CVA Flintlock this season and this will be the 40th year its gone hunting. That rifle has harvested 32 White Tails in 40 years. I would say the chances of a new in the box unfired rifle giving you issues will be slim.

 

[TDM]

@MartyHaag1206 with a flintlock rifle or smoothbore the lock is the true heart of the gun. You have quite a bit of leeway with a percussion lock but a flintlock with poor hammer geometry, a too strong or too weak mainspring, a poorly hardened frizzen, a frizzen spring that is too strong or too weak, and/or an ill finished tumbler will contribute to frustration when trying to shoot it. That doesn’t mean all less expensive flintlocks will be junk, some will be fine or can be made fine with polishing and tuning. But you just need to be aware of the potential problems. The plus side is with a less than good lock is that you can learn quite a bit by taking it apart and polishing the internals. It’s not difficult, just do some research and ask questions first.

 

[Trot]

My own experience, even new the CVA locks I had weren't good. Not that they didn't work at all, but had a very high failure to fire rate. I'd take a chance on the TC's or Pedersoli's.

 

[jdw276]

My experience with my lefty CVA flintlock has been nothing but positive. Figured out how it likes the flint, bevel down, and not looked back. 1 maybe 2 gr 4f in the pan and boom. Not hard on flints. Got over 100 shots out of several and 60plus is not unusual for me. Been a great rifle to learn with and spent $235 plus shipping from deer creek products out of walden ind. They still have em in stock, price is more now though. I have considered buying a second from em as well. Better locks out there? Quicker locks out there? Most certainly, but mine goes boom and not broke anything yet on it. Been a good experience for me. Got a lefty percussion to match it. Same experience with it.

 

[Brokennock]

Do you mean the locks are cheap as in they are terrible from factory

Yup.
Now some poorly designed or built locks can be tuned and made good, some can't.
Seems the general consensus of your responders here would suggest the Pedersoli or TC locks are your safest bet.
It would seem that if you want to humt with it this year, you have a bit of a time crunch. No time to be messing with a sketchy lock.

Before this tall of difficulty with poor flintlocks turns you off from them let me say this. A lousy flintlock, (just talking about the lock here) either by design or assembly, will make one hate flintlocks and believe the old nonsense about how unreliable they are,,,,,, a good lock is a thing of beauty and precision. Personally, I can't speak for everyone or their experiences, I have found my flintlocks to be almost more reliable than my caplocks,,, when I do my part. And, when they do fail to fire, the flintlocks have been much easier to square away and get the shot off.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I would think that in the case of NIB rifle that has never been fired the lock should be ok. Do you mean the locks are cheap as in they are terrible from factory or that they are terrible after years and years of use ?

The answer to both questions is yes.

The cheap locks from the factory are assembled to the point of being barely able to function. In some cases, due to hardening shortfalls, the lock wears out quickly. Most likely, the new in box CVA Mountain rifle will have properly hardened parts. The good news is that the CVA Mountain rifle has the bridled lock with the fly for the set trigger. This is much better than the unbridled lock with no fly that was made for their lowest priced guns. It still has the weak mainspring and will require a good tuning of the lock. At the very least the internal parts will need to be polished. Any of the casting lines should be taken off for looks at least and any parts that contact other parts should be polished. Polishing should not remove metal (at least not much metal). Rotating parts should be oiled and the rubbing parts should get a light coating of grease. As seen by the accounts from some users, the locks can be made to be fully functional and last a long time. Long term continual use will polish the mating parts through use and the lock performance will improve over time.

I had read the original post before the edit that corrected the pricing. So, my comments about pricing are off. The edited prices are reasonable.

 

[JBird]

My first flint was a TC Hawken kit still new in the box, and the lock on that gun did put me off muzzleloaders for a bit. Destroying flints every few shots, many flashes in the pan. Eventually i bought an L&R lock and it works great though it's undersized and looks bad on the gun.

Not long later I built a "poor boy" Southern Rifle, after that success I built a Kibler Colonial when they were released. They both get shot and carried regularly. The TC will never see use by myself, at best a loaner rifle. It's reliable now, but still ugly and heavy for a "short" gun

 

[bptactical]

Sharon never supplied barrels for CVA. Very early CVA guns were US barreled but they were not Sharons IIRC.
I am not sure if they ever made “drop in” barrels for them.

Sharon barrels were about the finest barrels of the Renaissance period of muzzleloading.
I have 4 original Sharon rifles and each one is an excellent shooter.