Epoxy heat sealing....

[bigstick6017555]

"Do not tint with anything like oil paint pigments or acrylics. Do not use stains or solvents either. Do not add aniline dyes! They will turn the epoxy into rubber sometimes. Epoxy mixtures are critical. Do it right and you get what you want: a strong bond and an excellent hardness. If you mix solvents or other oily, gooey things into the epoxy, you might very well get something you do not want. If you wished to seal the wood you could use a coat of Zinsser Sealcoat. The epoxy finish will bond to it." I found this in a gun book I had in the shop, just a thought.

 

[Sudsy]

I've had some long conversations with the engineers over at Envirotex epoxies and at West systems
What happens more often then not when a thinner is added is that you get microholes in the cured product and lose the water seal you were trying to achieve.
And you can never use a petroleum product in an epoxy. Like you said, it will probably never fully cure and, at best, be gummy - no way will it be waterproof. (which is why I'm kicking myself for being stupid enough to have stained it already)

I've traveled far down this rabbit hole over the past 20 years. Now I'm about to go a little deeper.

 

[Sudsy]

And in plug making the Zinsser is the prime coat we put over the epoxy seal coat before painting
If you put it on first you lose the penetration you're trying to get from the epoxy on the warmed wood.

 

[EC121]

Sand the stain off. It is probaby sitting on top of the wood. A water or alcohol stain will dry in the wood but leave the grain open.

 

[Sudsy]

Sand the stain off. It is probaby sitting on top of the wood. A water or alcohol stain will dry in the wood but leave the grain open.

Too late, there's too much end grain because of the carvings - and no way am I cutting all that work off.

I have a test bit of wood drying right now. I'll epoxy it tomorrow and we'll see what happens. I'm expecting fish eyeing in the epoxy which won't be good

At the worst I'll be doing a traditional oil finish which will make a few you you happy anyway
Still can't believe I effed up like this with the stain. Stupid, stupid, stupid

 

[Sudsy]

Here it is right now after a detailing with my wood burner to bring out the edges and a coat of "honey" stain

 

[Celticstoneman]

I would NEVER do that, this is a crappy CVA kit with a really boring piece of wood.

Unless someone comes up with a functional reason not to do it, I'm going to finish up the inletting and shove her in the oven.

It sounds to me as if you had your mind made up long ago that you were going to try this method. If so why bother asking us and then belittle those of us that give you an answer that pops your balloon ?
John

 

[Bad Karma]

I'm a saltwater lure builder and over the years developed a technique for sealing plugs that's pretty much bullet proof.
The fully machined plug is heated until it's pretty warm, but not hot, then it's liberally slathered inside and out with long cure epoxy. All excess is removed inside and out and it's left to cure for 48 hours.
A final sanding with 400 grit and a wipe down with alcohol to remove the haze and it's ready for paint and an epoxy topcoat. In this case it would be ready for a polishing.

Working on a vintage CVA squirrel gun kit right now and wondering if i should try it. I like the idea that it would harden and help protect the carving

Is there any reason I haven't thought of that I shouldn't do this
This would be the largest piece I've ever attempted to seal by far

View attachment 84723

I’ve done similar with wooden longbows. In addition to warming the wood I thin the epoxy with acetone. It penetrates deeply into the wood and short of removing a 1/16” layer of wood you will not be removing the finish. Prior to this I use alcohol soluble dye to color the wood if desired.

 

[Bad Karma]

I've had some long conversations with the engineers over at Envirotex epoxies and at West systems
What happens more often then not when a thinner is added is that you get microholes in the cured product and lose the water seal you were trying to achieve.
And you can never use a petroleum product in an epoxy. Like you said, it will probably never fully cure and, at best, be gummy - no way will it be waterproof. (which is why I'm kicking myself for being stupid enough to have stained it already)

I've traveled far down this rabbit hole over the past 20 years. Now I'm about to go a little deeper.

I’ve used West system epoxy with acetone thinner and the finish is waterproof at least to the extent I can measure. Wooden bows that absorb moisture lose draw weight and take a performance robbing set. Which hasn’t happened with this finish so far but I have only been using it for 20 years or so. Maybe in the long run it won’t hold up.

 

[Metalshaper]

S,

Your gun and your idea.. As my builder bud would say " Hold my beer and watch this!"

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

 

[Sudsy]

It sounds to me as if you had your mind made up long ago that you were going to try this method. If so why bother asking us and then belittle those of us that give you an answer that pops your balloon ?
John

Because I got some very good non-snooty "Ooh ooh it's not traditional" answers

Like this one that saved me a major headache

Only input I have is I would use iron nitrate to stain....not a wipe on stain. That's the only problem I can think of is the epoxy might not soak into the wood and bond with some wipe on stains. I'd have to try the stain and epoxy on a scrap piece of wood first.

Martin - you were dead right, still can't believe I used a petroleum stain, I should know better.
The test piece fish-eyed really badly, so there goes the epoxy treatment out the window

Just polished in the first coat of Tung oil

 

[Sudsy]

I’ve used West system epoxy with acetone thinner and the finish is waterproof at least to the extent I can measure. Wooden bows that absorb moisture lose draw weight and take a performance robbing set. Which hasn’t happened with this finish so far but I have only been using it for 20 years or so. Maybe in the long run it won’t hold up.

For a bow you should be fine, fishing lures not so much. If water gets through it sheds most of it's paint and its top coat.

 

[NorthFork]

Because I got some very good non-snooty "Ooh ooh it's not traditional" answers

Like this one that saved me a major headache



Martin - you were dead right, still can't believe I used a petroleum stain, I should know better.
The test piece fish-eyed really badly, so there goes the epoxy treatment out the window

Just polished in the first coat of Tung oil

Not trying to bust your chops here BUT this IS a site dedicated to the more traditional aspect of muzzleloading. Hence the static you are seeing from some folks. Nice carving btw.

 

[Clint Meier]

Hey Sudsy, don't let some of those folks get under your skin. I think that you were on the right track! I do stock refinishing and repair work as well as checkering. I have been using two part slow cure epoxy resins as a gunstock and checkering sealer for at least 30 years, maybe longer. If someone wants to use only period correct finishing materials, that's fine and I can't fault them for that, but my philosophy is why not use something better if it is available? There is no oil based stock sealer or finish on earth that gets as hard as an epoxy sealer treatment.

Until recently I used Envirotex Lite, which is apparently no longer sold in Hobby Lobby and Ace Hardware stores, so now I use ALUMILITE Amazing Clear Cast - High Gloss. Once the wood is sanded and fuzzed to whatever the desired degree is, I apply the epoxy sealer. The normal mix is 50:50 and the Envirotex instructions suggested using alcohol to thin it out, so I use denatured alcohol. I used to use acetone, but it evaporated out of the epoxy too fast. The alcohol is slower, which I think allows for more time for it to soak deeper into the wood. I can't comment on the 'microholes' or fisheyes as I have never experienced them. I add enough alcohol to the mixed epoxy, usually an amount about equal to the volume of the epoxy, to make it as thin as water and then brush on a liberal coat inside and out. If it soaks in anywhere, I just brush on more, and continue to do so for about 30 minutes, or whenever it stops being absorbed into the wood. I then wipe off all the epoxy from the inner and outer surfaces using paper towels and hang the wood up to cure for a day or two. The surface of the wood will look dull or shiny, depending on the degree of surface sanding preparation it was given. After that I apply enough coats of my own Tung oil formula and wet burnish them into the wood until I have the kind of grain filling finish desired.

The epoxy by itself imparts no color to the wood, and for all intents purposes is clear. If I want to add mild to moderate coloration to the wood, I add some powdered oil soluble J.E. Moser's aniline dye to the epoxy solution. The oil soluble version of the dye readily dissolves in the alcohol/epoxy mix with no clumping. If I want to really darken the wood, I apply Solar-Lux liquid aniline dye directly to the wood first, and when dry, apply the clear epoxy mix. Aniline dyes are very transparent and allow the wood grain to show through much better than pigmented dyes or stains, which obscure grain.

I believe the epoxy sealer has several advantages. The epoxy seals the stock's inletting so as to be less prone to oil soak and dark staining from the metal over the years. I also apply the epoxy mix and follow with the Tung oil treatment on new or refreshed checkering as well. I would like to think that those little diamonds will not wear down nearly as quickly as if only an oil finish had been applied to them. Should there be any doubters as to how wood treated as such looks, click on my name and go to my account page to get my two web site addresses and have a look yourselves. Almost everything there that was either finished or refinished by me was sealed with epoxy first. And, no I am not soliciting business, note that both web sites have updates this year stating that I am not taking in any work at present due to a long backlog and some hand and wrist problems.

 

[Sudsy]

Until recently I used Envirotex Lite, which is apparently no longer sold in Hobby Lobby and Ace Hardware stores, so now I use ALUMILITE Amazing Clear Cast - High Gloss

I can't comment on the 'microholes' or fisheyes as I have never experienced them. I add enough alcohol to the mixed epoxy, usually an amount about equal to the volume of the epoxy, to make it as thin as water some hand and wrist problems.

Ah NUTS !! I've been using Envirotex Lite for 20 years, for lure building and as a thread coat for rod building. Hopefully they still sell it at Michael's Arts and Crafts (no shipping fee, no hazmat fee, and a 40% off coupon is pretty sweet)

You are getting micro-holes, but since you're not going to be fully submerging a gunstock like you do a lure, simply looking to harden the wood, it shouldn't matter.

Also, I called them microholes, that's what the engineer at envirotex called them. At West systems they call them wormholes

You might find this interesting.......

 

[Clint Meier]

Thanks for the article Sudsy! When I run out of ALUMILITE, I'll try Michaels for Envirotex.

 

[Sudsy]

Not trying to bust your chops here BUT this IS a site dedicated to the more traditional aspect of muzzleloading. Hence the static you are seeing from some folks. Nice carving btw.

I get that, but when you really think about it, where is the difference between a barrel made of modern steel and a finish made from modern materials ?
So long as it's a traditional style gun, anything we do to further the art, create a stronger, safer, more dependable gun should be considered a positive thing.

And thanks - it's the first relief carving I've ever done.

 

[rmann]

Nice creativity on your carving. I've thought about doing the same with maple leaves as a tribute to my maple stock, But I'm not bold enough to try. But you have a plain stock, so great to "practice" on! But it sure looks like beech, and not birch.

 

[rmann]

Thanks Clint for your excellent input, and good details from Sudsy.

 

[Flintandsteel]

Ok, to be realistic,….. it’s a CVA, nothing traditional there. The carving either. I’d say use whatever finish/ sealant you want. It’ll be a fun, little modern muzzleloader. Shoot it and have fun.