Effective range for the .50 cal

[Zonie]

No rifle bullet shoots flat if "flat" means there is no drop from a straight line established by the centerline of the bore. No Hawken, no Schutzen, no modern super-duper magnum, nothing on earth that shoots a projectile of any kind at any velocity has a projectile that does not depart from that straight line.

If your Hawken's projectile somehow manages to not depart from a straight line established by the center of the bore you will be able to zero the sights at 20 yards and hit the center of a target at 200 yards without changing the sight setting or adjusting the point of aim.

Perhaps you should look at the trajectory charts and notice that none of them show a bullets path as being flat. They all show curved lines of trajectory and the amount of curvature increases as the range increases.
If you happen across a trajectory chart that shows the flight of a roundball you will see that they have the greatest curvature of all common projectiles.

I really don't think we are as ignorant as you suggest. Perhaps there is a lack of communication between some of us and you due to semantics?

 

[KentuckyMan]

I agree with you man..

All projectiles, in their trajectory, have bullet drop.. Plain and simple.

However, for those who are clearly wrong, like in those who are making up crazy powder charge, that clearly can't send a ball that far, or just don't make sense; well I agree in the fact ignorance may not be the correct term to use. Maybe they just don't take this thread seriously.:idunno: Maybe they are suffering from lead poisoning; by handling a lot of lead balls and not washing their hands before dinner.
:v: Sense I'm new to this forum, and new to shooting MuzzleLoaders. If anyone were to tell me that they have some sort of magic powder :stir: then I might consider that being the reason for not making a whole lot of sense on this thread..

Anyways, Just joking with you guys up to now, Thank you for showing me all of your tips!! I can't wait to go out shooting again. :wink:

 

[Eterry]

First, the farthest I have shot my M/L was at 300 yards, but it was at a large rock and just to see if I could hit it,(which I coundn't). My personal long shot at a living thing was a coyote at about 80 yards, a .45 R/B and 70 grains of fffg. I held on his spine and he fell at the shot. Around 100 yards is my limit, mostly because of trajectory. My last range session involved my 58 musket with 500 grain mini's and 60 gr. FFg. I set the rear sight at 300 yards and got pretty close to a bowling pin set up at 200 yds, which suprised the heck out of me.

A conical usually moves slower but is much heavier and has a higher ballistic coefficient, which means it isnt effected by wind and drag as much as PRB. A good example would be throwing a javelin and throwing a brick of similar weight. Both start out moving at about the same speed, but the javelin doesnt drag as much and will travel farther. Thats why most modern-gun 1000 yard shooters use a heavy 6.5 mm bullet, its long and doesnt drag as much.

I broke out my Lyman Black Powder Handbook and turned to the trajectory table. A 180 gr .495 RB with 90 gr FFFG has approx. 1796 fps in a 28 inch barrel. The same charge with a 370 gr conical has approx. 1480 fps. for 310 fps difference.

The RB velocity is 1033fps at 100 yards, 867 fps at 150yds, 754 fps at 200yds, 663 fps at 250yds, and 584 fps at 300yds. If sighted in at 50 yards the RB falls 4.07" at 100 yds, 16.24" at 150yds, 39.89" at 200yds, 78.76" at 250yds, and 137.44" at 300yds.

The conical velocity and drop is similar in the 50 cal. until the range reaches 250 yds, when the conical passes the RB.

Now I'm certain that almost everyone has a M/L that shoots flatter than that, but thats Lyman's info, which they spent a lot of time and effort working up.

Something I noticed studying the charts is that when the same charge of powder is used on conicals and RB's they both fall about the same amount, even though the speed and energy is different.

My .02

Eterry

 

[Pete Gaimari]

All bullets don't have drop depending on distance. I'm a coyote hunter. I use a .223 out to 400 yds. (sorry BP won't work) Now at 400 yds of course it has drop. Even a bullet like the .223 that shoots very flat has to be shot in an arc at 400 yds.

However, if all I shot was 75 yds. It would shoot flat.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Howdy Capper, you're close enough to call a neighbor, do you take in any of our local rendezvous?
I know what you're saying and understand what you mean when you say your .223 shoots flat. In common terminology we shooters say a rifle shoots flat to a certain distance just meaning the bullet never rises above the line of sight nor drops below the line of sight enough to cause a problem.
But technically speaking Zonie is correct in saying that all projectiles do begin to drop the instant they leave the muzzle. Our sights are adjusted to compensate for bullet drop so we don't have to make any conscious allowance for it, thus it "seems" to shoot flat out to the range for which the sights are zeroed.

 

[Eterry]

I don’t mean to flame anyone here, but unless you live in an actual vacuum ALL objects fall as soon as they are released from whatever force is holding them. Its just gravity. I know, my Drill Sgt. told me too that my M-16A2 bullet would rise for the first 400 yards before falling, but it just aint true.

What does happen is the sights are situated above the bore; a scope is usually 2 to 2 1/2 inches above the bore, issue sights on an M16 much higher. The weapon is slightly canted upwards (or else the bullet would never cross the line of sight) and the bullet crossed the line of sight twice, once around 25 yards, (remember the 1000 inch range?) and once at whatever range we have set the rifle to impact.

So...with the rifle slightly canted upwards the bullet does seem to climb and your Drill Sgt. was right...sort of....

The best example I have seen of this was a civil war sniper musket with a side mounted scope set for long range in a copy of American Rifleman. The "rainbow" trajectory of the musket was so severe that when the rifle is held parallel to the ground the scope is pointed downward the earth. When the scope is lifted to sight in on a distant object the rifle is at a severe angle upwards. Also if you ever watch Olympic archery where they shoot at 100 meters using scopes the same thing is witnessed.

When you look at the trajectory tables of PRB's its easy to see why the 30-30 was heralded as such a flat shooterin its day, compared to what had come before. Cartridges, powder, and bullets have improved so much that now the 30-30 is considered to have a "rainbow trajectory."

We say things like "thats a flat shooting rifle" but no weapon actually shoots flat, just flatter than other weapons.

No disrespect intended,
Eterry

 

[KentuckyMan]

Well you lay the point down.. I can't see anyone arguing, or coming up with a better statement. :hatsoff:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Howdy Capper, you're close enough to call a neighbor, do you take in any of our local rendezvous?

Would that be the CSML? If so, i've talked to Joy about the shoots. I'm not sure about the rendezvous yet. Maybe.

 

[preston cook]

you know the ignorance of some of you desk jockey shooters is amazing!!! where as my high dollar custom rifle with a 42" barrel will not, my high dollar Hawken will. no 2 guns shoot alike. also there is historical accounts of Hawkens shooting flat that far. they conceal this information from you in books! what cracks me up is just because you havent experienced this, or have found the accounts of this, you assume there is no way. so it is therefor ok to bash the reputation of someone who has done his research, and has experience. i hope this makes you feel smart. it has lowered my opinion of some of you. also have you considered the newbie that reads your stuff? nowhere is there anything about go and try it out, and see for your self. so you pollute there minds and further the misinformation that gets passed on. and while your thinking to yourselves that im crazy i have two words for you "Schuetzen rifle" which can shoot flat way past 150.

" ignorance" :hmm: Jean you might control the thinking of your board members but your remark of desk jockeys is way off base there are people here that have forgotten more about b/p ballistics than you will ever know you are out of your league here so there is no point in betting on stupidity in a battle of knowledge. :youcrazy:

 

[BadHorse]

well i asked some reputable folks, like dave from trak of the wolf, don getz (barrel maker) and a few others, and guess what, they agree with me. i think these folks have more experience than you do, and have forgotten more than you will ever know.

 

[preston cook]

with out a doubt :idunno: ,but i was not referring to me as an expert my reference was to the many involved in the discussion i never indicated i knew more than anyone and your attitude is unwarranted simpley put this board is made up of many , many knowledgeable persons and many are experts in there field also.

 

[BadHorse]

with out a doubt :idunno: ,but i was not referring to me as an expert my reference was to the many involved in the discussion i never indicated i knew more than anyone and your attitude is unwarranted simpley put this board is made up of many , many knowledgeable persons and many are experts in there field also.

like you dont have an attitude?

 

[preston cook]

:rotf: :rotf: nope,no attitude here

 

[BadHorse]

:rotf: :rotf: nope,no attitude here

you mean besides being confused, and wrong about certain facts regarding me? man up and trow your evidence out there!

 

[necchi]

Lighten up :barf:
trucker's not the only one that thinks this comment was nut's! :barf:

this is manure, my 50 cal hawken shoots very very flat out to 150 yards!!!!!! and thats with only 60gr of fffg.

Your rifle seems to defy several laws of physics, it must be a very special gun

 

[BadHorse]

Lighten up :barf:
trucker's not the only one that thinks this comment was nut's! :barf:

this is manure, my 50 cal hawken shoots very very flat out to 150 yards!!!!!! and thats with only 60gr of fffg.

Your rifle seems to defy several laws of physics, it must be a very special gun

you must not do much long distance shooting, or as dave from track of the wolf says and this is a quote,
[quote author=TOF link=topic=12261.msg116321#msg116321 date=1284835739]

why is it people have a hard time believing that a quality rifle can shoot flat out to 150 yards?

2 Reasons:
a.  They are ignorant.
b.  They've never been to the silohouette range at Friendship.

It's really not the gun, it's the sights.  Most LR type sights are too low to allow any elevation and you have to hold over.  Taller sights will allow you to show more front blade to adjust.
[/quote]

 

[Rogue River]

If you need tall sights so you can adjust for elevation then you are not shooting flat! You're lobbin it in. Your trajectory is curved not flat! :grin:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I think we have a failure to communicate here, a difference in understanding what is meant by the word "flat". A "flat" trajectory would mean one needed only one sight setting to hit dead center anywhere from the muzzle out to your stated 150 yards. There is NO muzzleloading rifle, NO bullet, NO powder charge which will do anything close to that.
If your rifle were sighted in to zero at 100 yards and then fired at 150, the ball will drop some 16-18" low. If sighted to hit dead center at 150 yards it will be about 8" high at 50 and 16" high at 100. That ain't no kinda FLAT.
Rather than getting all aggressive with people who don't understand what you're talking about maybe you should become more familiar with the terminology so that you can express yourself more clearly. I have to agree with everyone else in that what you have said is quite impossible unless you have not said what you really mean. My best guess is that you are saying you can compensate for bullet drop by holding your front sight high above the rear. If indeed that is what you mean then no one would argue with that. But that is not what you have said and is not the same thing at all as "shooting flat".

 

[necchi]

Thank you joe,
I have no doubt an ml roundball rifle sighted in at 150 yrds will hit the target at 150 yards,,even further IF that's where it's sighted into.

Thank you for explaining the common definition of "Flat shooting"

 

[Dphar]

you know the ignorance of some of you desk jockey shooters is amazing!!! where as my high dollar custom rifle with a 42" barrel will not, my high dollar Hawken will. no 2 guns shoot alike. also there is historical accounts of Hawkens shooting flat that far. they conceal this information from you in books! what cracks me up is just because you havent experienced this, or have found the accounts of this, you assume there is no way. so it is therefor ok to bash the reputation of someone who has done his research, and has experience. i hope this makes you feel smart. it has lowered my opinion of some of you. also have you considered the newbie that reads your stuff? nowhere is there anything about go and try it out, and see for your self. so you pollute there minds and further the misinformation that gets passed on. and while your thinking to yourselves that im crazy i have two words for you "Schuetzen rifle" which can shoot flat way past 150.

I guess flat is a relative term.
Shoot your 150 yard rifle at 50-80-110 and 150 with the same hold on the same size target. Better yet do as Forsythe did and shoot through very light paper like onionskin with the paper sheets at the above ranges. Leveled so that the bottom of each sheet is level with the middle of the target. The shoot at the middle of the target and the onionskin will give the trajectory above line of sight.
Computers can give an idea but may not be accurate at the lower velocities I have not done real world testing that would prove the following table.
This is a 50 caliber RB at 1900 fps. It shoots pretty flat. 6"+ low at 150 but its zeroed at 120.

But note the drop from 150 to 175.
It takes about 1/2 ball weight of powder to get this velocity maybe 80 grains of FFF Swiss, 90 or so for GOEX.
60 grains won't do this trajectory, the physics of projectiles will not allow it.
With the rifle ZEROED at 150 the ball will be so high at 70-80 yards as to require holding low on deer sized animals to stay in the vitals.
60 grains of powder would be even worse.
If zeroed at 100 the 1900 fps load will be 12-15" low at 150 perhaps more. Ballistics program is on the other computer and I am too lazy to go up and jump through the hoops to generate a 1500 fps load or a 100 yard zero for this load.

Schuetzen rifles do not shoot flat to 200 either though the percussion Schuetzen rifles likely shot a lot flatter than RB rifles. Most used a cloth patched picket with a heavy charge of powder for the bore size. I am up to 80 grains FFG in my 40 caliber picket rifle and its shooting better than the lighter loads.


Dan

PS

I make (and shoot) high dollar MLs

and used to specialize in high dollar BPCRs for some customers were national champions and do some pretty good shooting myself, quite a bit of shooting. And no, just because you can hit a Ram at 500 yards in BPCR silhouette with a 45-70 its no indication that it shoots flat to 500 yards. It takes quite a bit of elevation to get it there.
I have shot paper at 200 yards with a 54 flintlock and it don't shoot flat to 200 either.

But flat is relative I guess but physics is pretty much science and it governs projectiles.