Effective range for the .50 cal

[rafterob]

:thumbsup: Rifling stabilizes the ball, which may have a nearly significant effect on distance but more significant on accuracy. As Zonie stated mass has more of an impact on distance, assuming equal initial velocity. The rate of twist is determined to provide the best stabilization for the particular projectile intended for that barrel. So you kind of have to take rate of twist out of this conversation because you could come up with all kinds of combinations that will perform differently. "Apples to Apples"

 

[rafterob]

I thought when they went to rifled barrels it gave them more distance, and of course accuracy

It allowed for greater accuracy at longer distances, that was the improvement. It did not neccesarily lead to longer flight distance.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I've heard that conicals tumble in slow twist barrels? Is that true? Surely that would hurt distance?

I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row and understand.

 

[BriR]

They do tumble. I've shot some conicals in slow twist, 1-66" barrels and they invariably keyhole on the paper. The only ones I've found that shot pretty well were Lee REAL bullets, usually with the lighter grain ones making a rounder hole than the heavier ones in a .54.

 

[preston cook]

A .50cal bal over say 90+ grains of powder would be DEADLY at well over 200 yrds... HOWEVER it is loseing energy fast and in my opionion would NOT be an ethical hunting range. The bigger issue though wil be the trajectory ... at 100 yards you lose say 5". between 100 and 125 yards you lose an additional 12". Between 125 and 200 its something like an additional 36".
I wouldnt want to be hit by one even at that.

this is manure, my 50 cal hawken shoots very very flat out to 150 yards!!!!!! and thats with only 60gr of fffg.

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :shake:

 

[necchi]

Doesn't a conical tumble if used in a slow twist barrel?

The tube shaped conical projectile doesn't really "tumble", it will "Yaw" in flight. Kinda begin turning sideways while still having a small rotation from the barrel twist, that causes some funny stuff to happen at the terminal end of target.

What does a ball do in a very fast twist barrel?

The patched Ball will simply "skip" the rifling,,it'll get pushed down the barrel and not recieve the proper spin rate to stabilize.
Hope that helps :grin:

 

[Semisane]

Magic powder.

 

[Rogue River]

:bull:

 

[preston cook]

you pegged it. :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

With a round ball and a suitable charge of powder, 1850-1900 fps a 50 caliber rifle sighted for maximum point blank range +- 3" will stay on a deer to about 125 yards with no hold over.
I have killed deer and antelope to 130-140 yards with a 50. Clean one shot kills.
Past 150 its really iffy due to range estimation 150 yards may require 12-14" of hold over when 120 is still dead on hold.

The problem arises with hunters with rifles sighted on at 50 yards for shooting matches etc. This will put the ball very very low at 110. The hunting rifle needs to be sighted "on" 115 to 130 yards for best use. IN THE WEST where ranges are often long and hard to judge without a range finder.
Everyone who hunts with a ML rifle, a traditional one anyway, should read Forstyhe's "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles"
There is some early 19th century "science" with the internal ballistics etc. But the trajectory and performance on game is spot on.
One must remember that the round ball rifle was not replaced by breechloaders and bullets until the advent of the Sharps and Remington breech loaders using charges of powder of 70 grains or more. The earlier Spencers and Henry's were fine for social work but did not measure up for hunting compared to a RB rifle shooting a ball weighing about what the 44 Henry bullet did at greater velocity.
The later pistol cartridge rifles, 38-40 & 44-40 BP loadings, were not in the same class as anyone who has hunted with a 50-54 RB rifle and one the pistol cartridge rifles or carbines will attest.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

1. A .22 has a "range" of up to 1.5 miles a .50 cal with a solid load of powder ought to lob one about that far at the proper angle. ??

2. The trajectory to 100 yards is fairly flat and a good deer load ought to be enough... The bottom starts to fall out after 100 yrds but still manageable ( for SOME ) out to 125 - 130 yards and then the bottom REALLY falls out...

Me? 100 yards is my imposed limits. I also choose a .54 for a tad more ooomph too.

A 54 rb is hard pressed to make 1000 yards regardless of departure angle. At least at any velocity obtainable with BP.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I'm going to post this again in the pistol section of the forum, I hope nobody minds.

The fairest I have ever shot my 50cal Hawkins was about 50 yards maybe a bit under. With just the plan sights that came with the gun( adjustable real sights), 1# how far can I shoot this gun, and what are the Effective ranges for hunting deer? The answer that I'm looking for on the second question is, what is the maximum range possible, and what range do you feel comfortable at shooting the deer(and not point blank range :rotf: ).

:Remember: Question one has nothing to do with shooting deer. Leave that to question 2.

Oh one last final thought :yakyak:. Don't forget to add in your comments on both types of ammo, Balls and patches, and Maxy balls.

If you have not shot the rifle past 50 yards then you likely should not shoot at deer past 50 yards.

Point blank range is a very important criteria for any hunting rifle. It refers to the maximum distance that no hold over is required to srtike the target.
With a proper load and proper zero a 50 caliber round ball rifle will have a 110 to 130 yard point blank for deer sized animals. I.E. the ball will strike within 3 inches or so from the muzzle to 110-130 yards and thus a center hold will be "on" a deers kill zone.
Dan

 

[Little Wattsy]

A .50cal bal over say 90+ grains of powder would be DEADLY at well over 200 yrds... HOWEVER it is loseing energy fast and in my opionion would NOT be an ethical hunting range. The bigger issue though wil be the trajectory ... at 100 yards you lose say 5". between 100 and 125 yards you lose an additional 12". Between 125 and 200 its something like an additional 36".
I wouldnt want to be hit by one even at that.

this is manure, my 50 cal hawken shoots very very flat out to 150 yards!!!!!! and thats with only 60gr of fffg.

1st of all allow me to say :bull: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

2nd, Im quit pleased that you have found a gun that defies not only gravity but all the laws of physics as they are understood by man at this time. I realize that "shoots very very flat" is a relative term so Im not sure what exactly you mean but loseing over 30" of trajectory dosnt exactly count as "flat" in MY book. :blah:

 

[ohio ramrod]

I find all of the discusion about "Flat" and "Fall" quite interesting. It is my personal belief (right or wrong ) that the line of sight and bore line must be taken into consideration. A rifle using open "traditional sights will often have a height difference of .625 to .70 inches from the top of the front sight to the center of the bore. Where as a scoped rifle will often have a two inch line of sight to bore center difference. This means that a rifle with the open sights has to "raise" 3/4 inch or less for the point of impact at the range the gun is sighted into. While the scoped rifle will have to rise 2 inches over the same distance. I believe that This difference in rise at the sighted range acounts for the differences quoted for fall at longer ranges. A ball going up more will continue to rise before falling back below the sighted in point. The less it rises the faster it will apear to fall. The more it rises the slower it will apear to fall. :idunno: :idunno:

 

[nkbj]

A .50cal bal over say 90+ grains of powder would be DEADLY at well over 200 yrds... HOWEVER it is loseing energy fast and in my opionion would NOT be an ethical hunting range. The bigger issue though wil be the trajectory ... at 100 yards you lose say 5". between 100 and 125 yards you lose an additional 12". Between 125 and 200 its something like an additional 36".
I wouldnt want to be hit by one even at that.

this is manure, my 50 cal hawken shoots very very flat out to 150 yards!!!!!! and thats with only 60gr of fffg.

1st of all allow me to say :bull: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

2nd, Im quit pleased that you have found a gun that defies not only gravity but all the laws of physics as they are understood by man at this time. I realize that "shoots very very flat" is a relative term so Im not sure what exactly you mean but loseing over 30" of trajectory dosnt exactly count as "flat" in MY book. :blah:

Ever seen somebody throw pieces of alkaseltzer to sea gulls? You're foaming.

 

[MikeChapin]

I'm confused at that. I thought when they went to rifled barrels it gave them more distance, and of course accuracy?

How about this example. Everything being equal.(bullet weight too) A 1-70 twist barrel. A RB and a conical at 150 yds.

How about a 1-18 twist?

Distance just depends on muzzle velocity and trajectory arc when everything else is the same.

Other factors raise their head as some of the people have mentioned.

The 1 in 70 twist barrel you mentioned would be an example. The conical would be so short it would almost be a round ball and would probably shoot the same as the round ball if the rifling was shallow.

With a decent load the 1:18 barrel the torque on the bullet would probably strip the patch on the ball. With a short bullet the faster twist would be helped more than the round ball but would not stabilize as well as a longer bullet.

My point being. Originally I gave a 1-48 twist,as an example, because it's a compromise twist that works ok for RB and conical. However, if you go to the extreme of twists and is ideal for one type of bullet/ball and bad for the other. It would still not matter about the twist?

Doesn't a conical tumble if used in a slow twist barrel? What does a ball do in a very fast twist barrel?

Other people gave good explanations about accuracy and Birddog was dead on about conicals in a slow twist barrel. If the conical tumbled you could hear it go downrange. When you hear a minie with a blown skirt going downrange you will never mistake the sound.

As far as smoothbore accuracy goes, I have a friend who shoots a smoothbore all the time. At 25 and 50 yards he is right in there with the rifle shooters, even winning now and again. At 100 yards, though, he doesn't have a prayer against the rifles. His ball will fly just as far but accuracy is gone.

Accuracy is a different story than distance. The shallow groove 1:48 barrel will shoot conicals well and will shoot roundball good enough with the proper loads. A deep grooved 1:48 barrel will shoot roundballs very well but leave something to be desired when shooting conicals.

 

[Dphar]

Most conicals are marginal in a 48" twist and become very unstable when striking animals. This from reliable sources.
Which matches military surgeons reports from the mine ball era which state.
The Minie ball from the standard military twists was renowned for not tracking straight though the targer I.E. people. They were reported to turn as much a 90 degrees from its trajectory in the air.


Dan

 

[CoyoteJoe]

All good points Dan!
Comparing balls and conicals at the same velocity is interesting but a bit misleading because, generally speaking, they will NOT be loaded to the same velocity. For example, with the 370 grain T/C Maxi-ball and 100 grains 2f, which is the maximum recommended load from T/C, the muzzle velocity is about 1400 fps. The same 100 grains will give a round ball a bit more than 1700 fps, plus the ball can safely be loaded up even faster. Thus the ball has a noticeably flatter trajectory to 100 yards. At 200 yards the conical may have less drop since it better retains it's initial velocity but that is really a moot point, 200 yards is way too far to be shooting at game with any muzzleloader or any rifle with iron sights.
That was in reference to the .50 caliber, with larger calibers the difference between ball and conical is even more pronounced. The standard service load for a .58 minie does not much over 800 fps, where as a round ball can be loaded to nearly double that, if the shooter can stand the recoil. With the standard minie load zeroed 3" high at 50 yards will still be about 8" low at 100. The roundball over a very comfortable load of 80 grains 2f leaves the muzzle at about 1200 fps and zeroed 3" high at 50 will be only 2" low at 100. Therefore, my .58 Zouave with a patched ball is a very deadly 100 yard point blank rifle, whereas the same rifle with a 500 grain minie is only about a 75 yard rifle before getting into "hold over", which is best left on the paper punching range.

 

[KentuckyMan]

Ok now I have a good idea upon how the ball and patch works, at it's most effective ranges, like 100 yards is a good kill range, and there some of yeah who say I have shot it at 500 yard, that the target was a paper bull's eye.:hmm: Then there are some of yeah who are suffering from lead poisoning... and well... I WANT SOME OF THAT MAGIC POWDER!! FOR THAT MAGICAL RANGES/With small powder charges.

Other wise, wash your hands for now on, after handing lead balls. :rotf:

Conical, for what I understand is a type of bullet. In all of what I have read about the differences between lead balls and conical; the conical will be one way more stable in the air, due to it's shape, and how it meets the air resistance. For that factor now added in; you also have the heavier weight that keep it consistence as it flies throw the air.

So my point here is round lead balls will fall out of the sky due to it's round shape, and low weight. While the conical will always have terminal volatility, due to it's shape making it more stable in the air, and it's heavier weight.

That's where I stand when it comes to the difference between the two. Now, what I want to know from you guys is how far can you kill a deer with conical. And how far can you hit a Paper target... AND yes I know it's all about your own personal limits, however, your guys experience gives me a story, and information upon what I can do to improve my next shooting event. :hatsoff:

 

[BadHorse]

you know the ignorance of some of you desk jockey shooters is amazing!!! where as my high dollar custom rifle with a 42" barrel will not, my high dollar Hawken will. no 2 guns shoot alike. also there is historical accounts of Hawkens shooting flat that far. they conceal this information from you in books! what cracks me up is just because you havent experienced this, or have found the accounts of this, you assume there is no way. so it is therefor ok to bash the reputation of someone who has done his research, and has experience. i hope this makes you feel smart. it has lowered my opinion of some of you. also have you considered the newbie that reads your stuff? nowhere is there anything about go and try it out, and see for your self. so you pollute there minds and further the misinformation that gets passed on. and while your thinking to yourselves that im crazy i have two words for you "Schuetzen rifle" which can shoot flat way past 150.