Do I just have a “short-range” rifle?

[TreeMan]

Bump that powder charge up about 15-20 grains to fight the wind and gravity a bit better. Also look into Dutch’s shooting system to get that 2” inch group tighter at 50 m.

 

[Tom Compton]

IMr Hoyt freshed a .40 to .48 w .011” deep grooves and 1:48 twist. .475 ball and .024 denim over 60 gr FFg at 25 & 50. Same but 85 gr FFg at 100. If thicker and tougher patch material doesn’t do the job, call him and talk about chasing the grooves to .010-.012”. Cheaper than a new gun.

Hope this helps a Brother
TC

 

[.36Rooster]

For the faster twist barrels like 1:48, use LESS powder. The light ball leaves the barrel way too than the rifling spins it and causes them to strip out of the rifling, resulting in no spin, which is what WOULD have been eliminintating flight imperfections and preventing your balls from grouping in a random haphazard pattern on the target.

You could use conicals if you don't want to back off on powder. But I wouldn't.

Just start backing off your powder charge until the groups tighten. You will see a change long before the balls start bouncing back at you.

 

[Widows Son]

Thank all you gentlemen for your help. It’s interesting how such a simple machine as a muzzle loading gun can cause such complexities.

 

[.36Rooster]

...The light ball leaves the barrel way too than..

Should say way faster than

 

[Hawken]

Inspect the crown or muzzle area closely. Improper use of cleaning jags or otherwise causing dings or nick damage in this area could cause problems like you describe, I expect.

 

[Widows Son]

Very good advice from so many experienced shooters.

As far as powder charges at 50m, I use 45 grains for economy. 60 grains is just as accurate (at 50m) but why burn the extra powder for the same result?

From everyone’s advice I have taken two strategies.
1. Try an even thicker patch material
2. Try an even larger powder charge.

My current patches are ticking of .24 thou compressed to .12 thou and require a brass range rod to load.

This rifle was made in 1976. I was made in 1968. I like the old gripe, even though I can’t figure her out yet.

 

[Critter Getter]

I am going to follow this closely and see what works for you. My .50 Hatfield with a 1 in 66” twist is in the same boat. I have won or placed in most all events that I have shot with that rifle. At 50 yards it is scary accurate. At 100 yards I’m lucky to hit a paper plate! Has been that way since day one back in 1983(?). All the deer I have shot at has fallen cleanly to it but all shot less than 50 yards. Btw.........my normal accurate load is 60 grains and only marginal improvement with a .495 ball rather than the .490. Let us know what works for you!!! Greg

 

[Okie Hog]

IMO: Unless the patched ball is a loose fit, it's unlikely the ball is stripping the rifling.

My preference is for a tight fitting patch/ball combination that requires use of a short starter..

 

[Grenadier1758]

I'd have to take another look, but Dutch Schoultz wrote about a similar experience with a T/C Hawken rifle in his accuracy treatise. As I recall. the solution was to use a thicker patch that was dry lubed.

Might be worth the $25 to read his 94 page book.

Black powder rifle accuracy system -

 

[Capnball]

Hello all.
I have a 1976 Pedersoli Plainsman caplock .45 that has been looked after by previous owner(s). The bore is shiny and the riflings all appear in good nik, even though they appear to be cut shallow. Recovered patches show no tears or ragged spots.

My frustration with it comes from not being able to hit anything beyond 50 metres. Up to 50 metres it groups very well (under 2 inches). However at 100 metres the target looks like it’s been hit with a shotgun. Absolutely no predicable point of impact and nothing you could call a group.

Yes. I have been through a lengthy, patient and systematic process of trying different patches, lubricants, ball sizes, powder charges and granulation. However I cannot find what this rifle needs beyond 50m. I wipe the bore between shots. I’ve come to wonder if this is simply a short range rifle and that’s all there is to it? Am I asking more than it’s designed for?

The results of my experiments to arrive at 50m accuracy are a .445 ball in a 15 thousands cotton patch using a 1:5 ratio of Ballistol and water and a teaspoon of dish soap. 45 grains of fffg Wano (Scheutzen). Off a stable rest, that will produce a 2 inch group wiping between shots.

Has anyone any advice or opinion?

I met a guy at the range who had just bought a gun. It came with two barrels. With the one barrel he could hit anything out to 100 yards. With the other barrel, using the same exact load he couldn't reliably hit the paper at that range. He was convinced that one barrel had been purchased to replace a worn barrel. I ran into him a couple months later and he had that gun driving tacks with both barrels out to 100 yards, no problem. It turned out, that gun came with both barrels. They just had different twist rates. One barrel was suitable for of watched round balls and the other barrel was for conicle bullets. Maybe try a different projectile!
Neil

 

[mushka]

Maybe it's just me but after hunting all my life with unmentionable rifles I consider all my MZ rifles as short range guns. I wouldn't shoot at an animal 100 yds away with one.

 

[flntlokr]

Look very carefully at the rifling in the muzzle. Sometimes people use steel or fibreglass rods without muzzle guards, and wear the rifling down badly. The olde timey quick cure was to cut a couple of inches off the barrel; the better cure was to get it freshed out. Good luck. I went through all this years ago with a TC that had about 15K rounds through it; I just got a drop-in GM barrel, and it all went away. The GM barrel was a whole different class.

 

[JCKelly]

My best guess, based on some experience, is that more powder will help with this shallow-grooved piece.
Old guns had deep grooves and shot OK with light loads.
Do use nice, soft, pretty much pure lead.

 

[springfield art]

My eyes were never that good, I wore glasses from age 12 until 72 when I had cataract surgery. Now I only need them to read.

I had the cataract surgery; it's amazing! Advanced in technology & surgical techniques have really improved over time. It was so easy recovery, etc., if shooters are considering it, go for it! Driving is easier, too.

 

[hanshi]

With the primitive open sights on muzzleloaders accuracy at extended ranges is a challenge. Shooting from a bench and shooting frequently always improves accuracy at least some. Patched ball shoots very well in a 1-48" twist bore. Tight loads do best and sometimes are a must for accuracy. My .54 has a groove depth of .006" and groups like a champ with up to 110 grains of 3F but it doesn't do nearly as well with conicals. The rot is 1-66" in that fine rifle. There is no reason a rifle with a 1-48" rot and grooves of .006" can't shoot well with light loads and heavy loads.

 

[renegadehunter]

I'd have to take another look, but Dutch Schoultz wrote about a similar experience with a T/C Hawken rifle in his accuracy treatise. As I recall. the solution was to use a thicker patch that was dry lubed.

Might be worth the $25 to read his 94 page book.

Black powder rifle accuracy system -

I would agree with this being the owner of a TC Renegade with shallow grooves and 1:48 twist. Mine is a .54. I've tried all kinds of different patch thicknesses, material, and lubes with both RB's .005" under bore diameter and .010" under bore diameter. My rifle flat prefers a .010" under bore diameter RB with a thicker patch better than a thinner patch and a .005" under bore diameter RB. I don't have to use a mallet to start them, but they do require a firm smack on the ball starter.
Mine also likes a very lightly lubed patch, wet or dry. Try the 5:1 Ballistol / Water with no dish soap and let the patches "dry" so the water evaporates off.
Other thoughts:
Worn nipple?
Wedge pin doesn't fit very tight? (if it has one)
Swabbing between shots is pushing a bit of fouling into the flame channel and causing a very slight ignition delay, not noticeable by you but enough to open groups? (Do you pop a cap after swabbing?)
Your rifle's preferred powder charge lies beyond 60 grains? When I tested my rifle for optimum powder charge it was like a switch got flipped when I went from 70 grains to 75 grains (mine is a .54 remember). It was very significant, group size cut in half.

 

[Josephg]

My 45s shoot best with 60 grains best out to 100 meters.

 

[William Lincoln]

Lot of interesting advice. I think more powder might be the answer. I have had consistent
good groups using 75 grains GOEX minimum. Since I have used several different Hawkins
over the years in 50 caliber, I cannot advise on 45 caliber as I have not used them much. I
hunt Deer and hogs. Thicker patch maybe. Also I actually hunt. Watch wind, do not make
sound, I freeze for over half-hour sometimes. Was taught by my (half-breed called)
Native American Dad who trained horses for a living. Move through the forest like the wind.
So I rarely shoot far, usually 60-80 yards tops, have had deer walk up to me. Others have to use
stands due to lack of skill in the woods. So much good advice above, this forum could
form a good book. Really experienced riflemen. Due to this Covid thing we now have this time
to have sort of a fireside chat on the forum. Florida allows scopes on muzzleloaders. Those
who use them say they greatly improve long-distance shots. Yes they sell antique scopes as
were used in the civil war. You should be able to take your game under 100 yards in
mixed woodland places if you carefully slowly hunt. Longrifles can be set up for longer shots
but I think this is not needed and I never try for it. Scout your hunting area ahead and mostly
slow down. and learn to freeze absolutely still.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I agree. More powder and the faster burning stuff will encourage the ball to snug the patch into the rifling.
Of course the crown needs to have no burrs and the barrel tight in the stock but not touching anything to do with the lock.
It also must not be sitting JUST on the tang at the breach end.
No point fiddling with 5gn increments or patch thicknesses.
That's for splitting hairs for accuracy. A sound rifle will shoot good with almost any load combo.
If its struggling with any load combination it ain't the load combo!