Do I just have a “short-range” rifle?

[bigstick6017555]

Aim small, miss small, with the average blade and v open sights on most muzzle loaders, you are not aiming small at 100 yards. Most of those blade sights will cover 6 inches at 100 yards. put a good set of target sights on, it may not be era correct but you will be able to do a lot better at long yardages. How accurate do you want to be, accuracy cost's money.

 

[Widows Son]

Thank you all for your kind advice. That’s a wonderful thing about black powder shooters, they want others to succeed.

The ‘old eyes’ theory may very well be a big factor. I‘m 53. The target, front blade and rear v-notch sight picture does seem clear to me but maybe I’m delusional.

At 50 meters the 50 grain charge gave me same results as 60 and 70 grains, meaning they all produced touching bullet holes. At 100 meters the 50-60-70 grain charges all printed substantially low, as seen in the picture.

Regarding the picture of the two 3-shot groups being in different places on the paper, I was firing with the buttstock on my bicep, then I repositioned to put it into my shoulder. Obviously this changed the points of impact but it didn’t change the grouping.

“Like me if your groups are that bad at 100 and you can cloverleaf them at 50 then you have other environmental factors at play or you just suck at shooting at 100 yards. It’s just not the rifle or your load. There I said it lol”

Perhaps it’s my lack of talent.

 

[Widows Son]

Aim small, miss small, with the average blade and v open sights on most muzzle loaders, you are not aiming small at 100 yards. Most of those blade sights will cover 6 inches at 100 yards. put a good set of target sights on, it may not be era correct but you will be able to do a lot better at long yardages. How accurate do you want to be, accuracy cost's money.

That’s the truth. The rifle is model/styled/imagined to be something around the 1840s (in my guesstimate). It looks like it could have been a longrifle converted to percussion and half-stocked. I think it’s a very handsome piece myself. So I’m trying to shoot it with traditional sights, which have their limits, especially with older-eyes.

 

[TreeMan]

Thank you all for your kind advice. That’s a wonderful thing about black powder shooters, they want others to succeed.

The ‘old eyes’ theory may very well be a big factor. I‘m 53. The target, front blade and rear v-notch sight picture does seem clear to me but maybe I’m delusional.

At 50 meters the 50 grain charge gave me same results as 60 and 70 grains, meaning they all produced touching bullet holes. At 100 meters the 50-60-70 grain charges all printed substantially low, as seen in the picture.

Regarding the picture of the two 3-shot groups being in different places on the paper, I was firing with the buttstock on my bicep, then I repositioned to put it into my shoulder. Obviously this changed the points of impact but it didn’t change the grouping.

“Like me if your groups are that bad at 100 and you can cloverleaf them at 50 then you have other environmental factors at play or you just suck at shooting at 100 yards. It’s just not the rifle or your load. There I said it lol”

Perhaps it’s my lack of talent.
[/QUOTE
Youll not get the best potential accuracy at 100 unless you use shooting bags front and rear.

 

[Widows Son]

Thank you TreeMan, for that blunt logic. After cogitation over a couple of beers the truth becomes clear. I simply can’t see to shoot like I used to! (with traditional ’primitive’ sights)
It doesn’t make sense that a rifle which cloverleafs at 50m should ballistically collapse at 100m. All the careful load development I’ve done verifies this.
The obvious truth has hit me in the face! Thank everyone so much for your patient assistance.

 

[Colterkid]

Sounds like an old guy I knew from China. He went into the eye doctor and when he came out, they told him he had a cataract. He looked at them with a serious expression and said, "No, brother has Cataract, me drive Rincoln Continental."

Ah, grasshopper. That's a good one!

 

[Rifleman1776]

The twist is 1:48. A bit too fast for round ball

Many will disagree, including myself. A 1:48 is ideal for a rb in .45 cal. and others. Keep working your load, patch, etc. And, at 100 yards learn to real the wind currents. To answer your question for the thread. No, and antique style is not a short range rifle. It is an obsolete firearm. Do not compare to a modern cartridge rifle. Different critters entirely.

 

[griffiga]

The twist is 1:48. A bit too fast for round ball

Many will disagree, including myself. A 1:48 is ideal for a rb in .45 cal. and others. Keep working your load, patch, etc. And, at 100 yards learn to real the wind currents. To answer your question for the thread. No, and antique style is not a short range rifle. It is an obsolete firearm. Do not compare to a modern cartridge rifle. Different critters entirely.

Due to the nature of the poor ballistic efficiency of a round ball, the trajectory arch pretty much makes any traditional muzzleloader short range. I try to limit my shots at game to inside 100 yards, 80 yards preferably. The second muzzleloader I had was a TC Hawken .50 caliber kit with a 1:48 twist. It was very accurate as far as I could shoot it. I never knew, or paid attention to the twist at the time, I just loaded it up with powder and round ball and fired it - it worked so I didn't try to fix it.

 

[griffiga]

My 45 green mountain barrel will clover leaf at 50 yards with 70 grains of 3F in its 1-66 barrel. My point of impact at 100 yards is exactly 6 inches lower than at 50 yards. I hold over that 6 inches. Some months at our matches I can hold a four inch group at 100 keeping them all in the black. Sometimes I just flub up and throw one out. Wind, lighting, and a dozen other factors can make that worse. Some months I just flat out suck. I shoot with 50 others and I see very few of those 1” groups people like to brag about all the time. It’s very difficult with period sights to shoot 1” inch groups. Like me if your groups are that bad at 100 and you can cloverleaf them at 50 then you have other environmental factors at play or you just suck at shooting at 100 yards. It’s just not the rifle or your load. There I said it lol.most folks I shoot matches with are extremely happy to keep their shots in the black with a random 10x in the mix at 100.

If I can keep most of my shots on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at a full 100 yards from a rest, I consider it a good days shooting. I don't know, maybe I have low expectations, but at 80 yards, I still call it "minute of deer." Especially if standing erect and swaying like a metronome in a wind storm.

 

[Big Bubba]

The picture of your rifling does look shallow. I made the following target that a member on another site recommended. They are great for old eyes. Just set the triangle on top of your front sight. This is a three shot group at 50 yards, ,440 ball, .021 canvas patch, 60 grains of powder ( I shoot one off target fouling shot and don't clean between shots). I never shot a group this tight at 25 yards, shooting at a regular bullseye.

 

[SamTex1949]

a Little late to the show here on this, I was struck by the photo of the rifle, so had to dig into my old Dixie catalog,
1970 issue so here is quick snap of that page !

 

[tenngun]

That’s the truth. The rifle is model/styled/imagined to be something around the 1840s (in my guesstimate). It looks like it could have been a longrifle converted to percussion and half-stocked. I think it’s a very handsome piece myself. So I’m trying to shoot it with traditional sights, which have their limits, especially with older-eyes.

Especially with older eyes. I noticed my ability to ‘aim small miss small’ went south about fifty
My best three shot group ( miscounted when I shot) at a hundred, and my smoothies at twentyfive and fifty

 

[Widows Son]

Well I have had some success! Unfortunately I left my target outside overnight and a downpour of rain disintegrated it, so, no photographic proof to show. Sorry about that.

The solution was to take a file to the front sight blade. I lowered it gradually until I was about 2.5 inches high at 50 metres. Then, at 100 metres I could put 8 out of 10 shots in the black 7-8-9-10 scoring rings (50 metres international slow fire pistol target). I believe there is still room for improvement but this is a very pleasant improvement. Thank you all so much for your kind advice.

The successful load is .445 ball, .018 pillow ticking patch lubricated with a 1:5 ballistol/water/dish soap mix over 50g of fffg.

*Interesting footnote______ I had believed the rifling was 1:48 because that is what I read it was. I actually measured it and it is 1:36“.

 

[user 48679]

It's good to hear that you worked it out.

 

[skwerleater]

If you haven’t already, try increasing the powder charge in 5 grain increments up to the max charge allowable by the manufacturer. There will be a sweet spot somewhere that provides good accuracy at the 100 meter mark. Try different powder makes if available.
It can be a little frustrating, or so I used to think, but consider it part of the fun, heck your shooting! Good luck.

 

[rodwha]

It seems like when I’ve read of people working on fast twists with shallow grooves the idea has been to work with powder charges under caliber size.

Have you tried any conicals? Seems like it’s what the twist was designed for.

 

[Stantheman86]

I shoot my Uberti Walkers at 100 yards and actually hit the target

If a rifle can't achieve that it either needs a serious load rework or there's something wrong with it

 

[oldsmoky]

When I was much younger I use to get 3" groups regularly at 100yds. Off hand.
Rabbits and foxes fell to that rifle beyond 100yds.
Ahhr, those were the days....

 

[oldsmoky]

have you tried different powder 2f maybe