Did some patterning today.

[mnbearbaiter]

When i hunted with my New Englander i shot 1/2oz of #7 1/2 shot and topped it off with 1 1/8oz of #5 pushed by 90-100gr of ffg! I also dare i say used a modern buffering in this load! The smaller shot seemed to act like a buffering for the #5, and really filled the pattern in well at 20-30yds, the buffering seemed to keep the #5's a little tighter as well so i had what i thought was a 40yd gun :wink:

 

[wvbuckbuster]

#6,5 or 4's go with what gives the best pattern in your gun. The core or center is what is most important as the bulk of the shot column will pass over the turkey after the front of it hits. Used #5 in one side of double and nickle #6's in the other. Just the way it shot best. With just 1 1/4 oz. did just fine on turkeys out to 30-35 yds.
Dan.

 

[Skychief]

When i hunted with my New Englander i shot 1/2oz of #7 1/2 shot and topped it off with 1 1/8oz of #5 pushed by 90-100gr of ffg! I also dare i say used a modern buffering in this load! The smaller shot seemed to act like a buffering for the #5, and really filled the pattern in well at 20-30yds, the buffering seemed to keep the #5's a little tighter as well so i had what i thought was a 40yd gun :wink:

I tried that same load, except, I used #4 shot in place of your #5 shot. MY results were so-so.

I found better densities with the aforementioned load.

Still, I may fiddle more with some sort of "duplex" load.

Thanks, Skychief.

 

[Skychief]

the bulk of the shot column will pass over the turkey after the front of it hits.

Dan, I have often wondered about this idea of the front of the shot column doing most if not all the work upon Ole Tom's head and neck.

Does anyone else have thoughts about this?

Does a turkey neck struck with a shotload only recieve a portion of that shotload because of the impact pushing it out of the way of the remainder of said shotload? :hmm:

Perhaps the shot travels fast enough that Tommy-Three-Toes takes all the shot string. :idunno:

I do not know, but, have wondered about this.

What say you?

Skychief.

 

[George]

Skychief, you need to forget about all that modern stuff and get yourself some shredded cedar bark for wads. :haha: :haha:

Flintlock smoothbore, 20 gauge, 46" cylinder bore, 85 gr. 2F, bark wad, 1 3/8 oz. chilled #6, more bark, 25 yards, here's a typical target:

Haven't tried it on turkeys, yet, but squirrels hate it. :v

Spence

 

[roundball]

Does anyone else have thoughts about this?

Does a turkey neck struck with a shotload only recieve a portion of that shotload because of the impact pushing it out of the way of the remainder of said shotload? :hmm:
Perhaps the shot travels fast enough that Tommy-Three-Toes takes all the shot string. :idunno:

Personally, I think you're way over-thinking this...you've got a shot load leaving around 1100 FPS and only traveling about 75 feet.
In the milliseconds it takes to arrive on target I'm pretty sure "shot-stringing" is not an issue at that close distance, and it's all over before said Tom's head has any chance to move out of the way...LOL.
Think about it, by the time you quickly get your eyes refocused on target, the Tom is already laying down on the ground.

What may be getting confused here is the similar but different comment that "if you center on the Tom's head, THE TOP HALF of the pattern passes harmlessly over his head...so hold on the wattles to get the most benefit of the center core of the pattern on the neck and head"...and there's truth to that of course, you can see it on the pattern paper.

 

[mnbearbaiter]

My thoughts on this are, if your POI is true to where you hold the bead in relation to the turkey then...heres what i tell anybody! Imagine an apple on a fence post??? The apple is the turkeys head and the fence post is your front bead :hatsoff: Now if you want to make that apple look oblong IE including a little neck so be it! Cant hurt especially at closer ranges! We have forty yard guns with our cylinder choked guns, we just need to get creative with paper wads, buffering, etc to keep the pattern together! The guns that are choked modified should work exceptionally well with the larger #4 or #5 shot! In regards to the duplex load i shot years ago, i noticed that the center of my pattern was primarily made up of the #5 whereas the 7 1/2's seemed to make up the fringe of the pattern! Maybe they had some sort of choking effect on the #5's when going down the bore :hmm: For cards/wads i used an overpowder card, a bore butter lubed 1/2" fiber wad, the shot loaded seperately and topped off with buffering, followed by two(2) short drops of the gun to sift the buffering down, and then a homemade overshot card punched from a cereal box! It seemed to do well out to a maximum of 40yds! With these loads i believe we need to go on the amount of pellets that strike the turkey head/neck on the turkey targets vs the modern way of counting the # of pellets in a 10" circle at 40yds!

 

[Skychief]

We have forty yard guns with our cylinder choked guns, we just need to get creative with paper wads, buffering, etc to keep the pattern together!

40 yard guns? :hmm: Really? :idunno:

 

[Skychief]

Out of curiosity.....how many pellets are striking spine and brain at 40 yards? Can you give a detailed load account?

Thanks, Skychief.

 

[mnbearbaiter]

I shot a total load that was 1 5/8oz pushed by 100gr Pyrodex RS that i did kill a bird with at 37 paces! Obviously, closer is better when it comes to turkey hunting :v I believed that i had anywhere from 8-12 pellets in the head/neck of a paper turkey target with several others on the paper! I went into the woods with that gun knowing 40yds was a stretch, last day of my 5 day turkey season here in MN with a bird held up at 37yds staring at my decoy, good solid rest off my knee, i shot :thumbsup: Im not sure if that gun was a cylinder or if it had some constriction, either way its long down the road now :cursing: For the record i skinned the neck of that bird and found 3 pellet holes!!!

 

[George]

Does a turkey neck struck with a shotload only recieve a portion of that shotload because of the impact pushing it out of the way of the remainder of said shotload?

When any game is struck by flying bullets it is not pushed anywhere. Inertia holds that turkey head absolutely where it is, and the projectiles punch holes in it. Being pushed by the impact of bullets of any kind only happens in the movies.

Spence

 

[armymedic.2]

i half agree.......wound channels can enlarge such that the disruption causes movement. shotguns can penetrate some and upon stopping or slowing push.

namely......i have witnessed more than a few woodchucks go "flying" into the hedgerow when struck. I know that is not the "push" we think of, but it is a ton of movement and most certainly caused by the "bullet of any kind".

i agree that the toms head is present in its location during the shot column impact, but lets be real here. place a can on the ground, walk ten paces....cock shotgun....fire...what happened? show me a can that stayed put and ill show you one full of concrete!

 

[roundball]

i agree that the toms head is present in its location during the shot column impact, but lets be real here. place a can on the ground, walk ten paces....cock shotgun....fire...what happened? show me a can that stayed put and ill show you one full of concrete!

That's really all the question was geared towards.

As far as the other point about the tin can goes, of course it can move, but it's basically milliseconds after the fact of impact, not during the leading edge of the shot charge impact so that the remainder of the shot charge misses it.

 

[armymedic.2]

agreed

 

[Stumpkiller]

Does a turkey neck struck with a shotload only recieve a portion of that shotload because of the impact pushing it out of the way of the remainder of said shotload? :hmm:

Perhaps the shot travels fast enough that Tommy-Three-Toes takes all the shot string. :idunno:

I do not know, but, have wondered about this.

What say you?

Skychief.

Says I the head & neck will move backwards, but not at the speed the rest of the shot column is traveling. The inertia of the head, neck, and 25 lbs of body will limit the travel (as opposed to the empty, loose can mentioned earlier).

As far as bodies moving: I used to woodchuck hunt with a .270 WIN shooting hot loads of 110 gr hollowpoints at around 3,300 fps mv. Parts and upper torsos of the bodies would move quite a distance, and frequently several feet into the air. But deer have a LOT more inertia to overcome than woodchucks, and turkeys more than empty tuna cans.

 

[Zoar]

Skychief---You are in good company if you think more shot and say "#7 1/2 shot is the way to go. Many have found this "formula" to be true. You shoot a lot more 7 1/2's than you do #5's or #6's for the same weight. A Lot More.

More shot in denser pattern means greater likelihood for death. As we all know, we are not going for body shots, we are going for head neck shots. #7 1/2's will penetrate very well at 20 yards... And that was what your original post was all about: out to 20 yards.

Capstick the famous hunter has some really convincing articles on advocating for smaller shot and more of it for all bird hunting and especially the larger birds like turkey. His argument was---you increase your percentage of success substantially when you go to smaller shot.... he verified this with shooting paper and more importantly in actual hunting.... a great deal of comparative hunting and the results were significant. Shooting with larger sized shot (and thus lower quantities of shot) dramatically decreased the number of birds killed. More smaller shot and his kill rate went way way up! Same gun. Same shooter. Everything the same except the size (and thus number) of shot. Turkey's heads are very susceptible to dying from #7 1/2 shot.

I have become a number 7 1/2 and even 8 shot man myself based on similar results.

I just pack him in a paper roll, taped up, and with a shot cup that holds them together better over 80-90 Grains of Black Powder.

 

[fraungie]

I use 80 grains and 1.5 oz of shot try that one and let me know how you do. A little less powder and a little more shot. will tighten it up a little not a bad pattern but a little low.

 

[Skychief]

Soaking in all the feedback. I love this time of year, just day dreaming of a big red, white and blue head sitting atop my brass bead! :applause:

Deciding what load to use this year is part of the fun too.

Skychief :thumbsup:

 

[mnbearbaiter]

I will say that a larger/denser pellet takes less velocity to effectively penetrate and take a gobbler down than a smaller/less dense pellet does! What does this mean? To me it means that sacrificing a few grains of powder to tighten a pattern up is a little more acceptable with larger shot like #5! According to my techie buddy who does ballistic gellatin tests with rifles and shotguns...a #5 pellet fired at 1000fps will effectively penetrate a turkeys skull/spine/skin out to 47yds give or take! Im not saying that we should tone our powder charges way down or we should abandon smaller shot, but its sure food for thought isnt it :idunno:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Any edition of Lyman's Shotshell Reloading Manual has tables in it that give MV, and down range velocities at 20,40,&60 yds. Additional tables give Pellet energy with different sized shot pellets going at different velocities at the 4 distances, and tables that give you Time in flight, and drop in flight for the different size shot pellets.

The tables were created for use with modern, Smokeless powder loads, BUT, they can be used with slower ML velocities, too. Just find the slower BP velocities on the table, and use the figures to the right on the chart to give you velocities, energy, time in flight, and drop in flight for your particular load. :hmm: Most BP shotgun loads leave the muzzle of your shotgun UNDER the SPEED OF SOUND( 1135 FPS). MOST OF THE SMOKELESS POWDER LOADS ON THE CHART leave the muzzle at velocities ABOVE the speed of sound, but LOSE all that extra velocity within the first 20 yards! :shocked2:

WHICH BEGS THE QUESTION, why are modern shooters even bothering with such high velocity, heavy recoiling loads( whatever mass moves forward generates an equal and opposite force going backwards) when the velocity does not really carry down range very far, but does work to open up patterns??????

Basically, the answer to the question is in the table of time in flight, as the faster MV still get the loads to the target sooner. The idea is that if you get the pattern out too the target faster, it doesn't have time in flight to open the pattern up too much. Choke helps to show the spreading of the shot patterns during flight.

With BP, you can't get the velocities that smokeless powder gives. You can delay the opening of the shot pattern by using shot cups, and choke to delay the process, even with the slower times in flight. However, the only way to get down range pellet energies that are similar to what is obtained with smokeless powder loads is by INCREASING the size(diameter), and weight of the pellets you fire down range.

Because a MLer shotgun is NOT restricted by the length of shotshell casings to the amount of shot that can be loaded, you can add more shot, of a larger diameter, to give you more pellets in the pattern, than is possible shooting modern shotshells. :hmm: :grin: :thumbsup:

The other advantage that MLing shotguns have is that you can load a large gauge shotgun with lighter loads in the field to "customize " your load for the game being hunted. Y0u don't have to always shoot the heaviest load your gauge can manage. A 28 or 20 gauge load in most 12 gauges is light on recoil, and usually produces better patterns than you get shooting those same loads from from a 28 or 20 gauge shotgun,respectively. This makes a 16,13, 12, or 10 gauge MLing shotgun a much more useful "tool" to the "One-Gun" shooter. :hmm: :idunno: :hatsoff: