Brown Bess Carbine...

[Russ T Frizzen]

If he was speaking of rifles, I think he would have made that distinction.

Fuzees is a bit vague--could be military style officer's guns (my guess), but almost any non-military smoothbore long gun.

Carbine probably refers to carbine bore smoothbore military arms but is frustratingly vague. It is highly unlikely that it refers to cut down Brown Bess muskets however as Pedersoli was not yet open for business...

 

[gizamo]

It is highly unlikely that it refers to cut down Brown Bess muskets however as Pedersoli was not yet open for business...

Ouch... :grin:

What part of the I :surrender: don't you get...?


giz,,, :hatsoff:

 

[chuckpa]

Rusty
Your right on.
I found a reference in Arms and Armor in Colonial America. Page 168
" In addition to the standard infantry musket,there was also a lighter officer's model known colloquially by the older term of fusil or fuzee. Throughout the entire period it generally followed the design of the regular musket but was lighter,better made and often embellished with decorations."

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

For an example of one of these, check North Star West's web-site. They have a nice, fairly priced version available.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Also Check out Chambers website and look at his officer's fusil. I've built several and they're basically just a civilian fowling gun.They usually are decorated with a martial theme , but not always. Jim has the original gun that he copied this kit from, It's a real gem of a gun.
Officer's fusil #1
Officer's fusil #2

 

[Okwaho]

Rusty
Your right on.
I found a reference in Arms and Armor in Colonial America. Page 168
" In addition to the standard infantry musket,there was also a lighter officer's model known colloquially by the older term of fusil or fuzee. Throughout the entire period it generally followed the design of the regular musket but was lighter,better made and often embellished with decorations."

These so called "officer's model" fusils were guns made by private makers such as Durs Egg, and the Mantons and privately purchased by the officers.They were essentially typical English fowlers and ranged from the rather plain brass mounted guns to the better iron mounted ones to the silver mounted ones depending on the finances of the officer.They generally had military motifs engraved on them such as stands of arms and often the coat of arms of the owner.The length of barrel,caliber, and finish were left up to the purchaser.

The term "fusil" used by the British was borrowed from the French term which although having the same spelling was pronounced "Fuzee".
When you get down to the gist of things most everything derives from the French.
Tom Patton

 

[engravertom]

Rusty
Your right on.
I found a reference in Arms and Armor in Colonial America. Page 168
" In addition to the standard infantry musket,there was also a lighter officer's model known colloquially by the older term of fusil or fuzee. Throughout the entire period it generally followed the design of the regular musket but was lighter,better made and often embellished with decorations."

These so called "officer's model" fusils were guns made by private makers such as Durs Egg, and the Mantons and privately purchased by the officers.They were essentially typical English fowlers and ranged from the rather plain brass mounted guns to the better iron mounted ones to the silver mounted ones depending on the finances of the officer.They generally had military motifs engraved on them such as stands of arms and often the coat of arms of the owner.The length of barrel,caliber, and finish were left up to the purchaser.

The term "fusil" used by the British was borrowed from the French term which although having the same spelling was pronounced "Fuzee".
When you get down to the gist of things most everything derives from the French.
Tom Patton

So, if one were to take a Pedersoli Bess, put on a new sideplate, scrub the lock markings, slim the stock, and put some moderate decoration on it one might have a reasonable facsimile of a civilian or officers militia Musket/Fowler? I suggest that based on the above comments that caliber choice would have been at the buyers discretion. Civilian purchasers might have desired a gun of musket bore because of their militia obligations?

take care,

Tom

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Yup. We've a lot to be grateful for where the French are concerned. For some reason this upsets some folks...

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Since officers weren't supposed to fire their weapons in battle unless in dire straits, they probably could have gotten by just as well with a nice pair of pistols and some probably did. They first and foremost were supposed to command and control the troops not bang away at the enemy. Their fusils were probably more often used on partridge than on opposing troops. And may well have been chosen with this in mind.

Colonial militiamen did have personal firearms that met the standards for militia service because they had to provide their own weapons, but they didn't necessarily look like a Bess. You could probably rework a Bess into a Committee of Safety style musket if you wanted, but it is way too heavy to make into a good officer's fusil.

 

[engravertom]

Thanks for the input.

Tom

 

[Mike Brooks]

So, if one were to take a Pedersoli Bess, put on a new sideplate, scrub the lock markings, slim the stock, and put some moderate decoration on it one might have a reasonable facsimile of a civilian or officers militia Musket/Fowler? I suggest that based on the above comments that caliber choice would have been at the buyers discretion. Civilian purchasers might have desired a gun of musket bore because of their militia obligations?

take care,

Tom

No , not really. If you start with a brown bess you'll always have a real clunker of a gun. These "fusils" were essentially civilian fowling guns in every way. Some were not even decorated with martial motifs. Occasionally you'll see one with the stock shortened for a small bayonet, the bayonet usually about 6" long and stored in a trap in the buttstock.
Now, Militia arms on the other hand could have been just about anything, depending on who supplied the arms. Government issue of "bring your own", anything is possible.

 

[engravertom]

OK. It would be less work to leave it alone, i suppose...

take care,

Tom

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Mike is right! I just checked my ultimate source of 18th century military arms, my 1999 Rifle Shoppe catalog, There are several models of Artillary and Dragoon carbines, all have 66 caliber barrels, around 37 inches long. Even the Light Infantry Fusil was .66 caliber and had a 42 inch barrel! The only factory carbines of musket bore were the two Sea Service Muskets. Musket bore
(75 - 77 cailber ) with 37 inch barrels.
I have heard that Roger's Rangers cut off some of their barrels. As this was an in the field operation it would not have looked like the modern Brown Bess Carbines. You were right Mike!
I am eating crow and spitting out the feathers!!
:bow: :bow: :bow:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The feathers are very nutritious--lots of protein and low in carbs! :v

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

I was once married to the Perfect Woman. She never made mistakes. I have grown to like the taste of Crow feathers :bow:

 

[flintlock75]

I have been following this issue since it started, and need to make some comments as to short barrel muskets.
Many people here have stated that their is no such thing, and that "carbine" length guns had smaller bore sizes than regular muskets. While the board of ordenance set general standards for bore diameters they were were not exact. I also have an extensive library of reference books to look at. The information in them is not always accurate with what was actualy made. I see lists of reading materials posted and thats great, but no one has mentioned exsisting "actual" guns that are out there both in museums and for sale. The british goverment contracted with many gun makers to provide weapons for the armed forces. I have personaly seen and handled original arms in dozens of museums and private homes in euorope and america and have seen guns that were not supposed to exsist. Several examples come to mind,
Brown Bess India pattern mustket 39" barrel .75 caliber dated 1786.
Brown Bess Volenteer Musket by D.Egg 37.5" barrel .75 caliber dated 1780.
Brown Bess Volenteer Musket by Knubley 37.5" barrel .75cal dated 1786.
Padget Carbine 17.75" barrel .67 caliber Dated 1815.
French Cavlry carbine 18.5" barrel .70 cal.
dated 1789.
These are just some examples of what is out there and not always listed in a book.
I have seen french tradeguns from the 1690's with rear sights, not just 1 but several in a rack. this would indicate they were not unique,one of a kind guns. The excavations at Ft. William Henry has uncoverd piles of cut off Brown Bess barrels, these peices are 10"-12" long. Excavations at Rogers Island found simalar cut down barrels. The rangers were known to favor short barrel muskets for woodland fighting and several examples are in collections. As to the NDN's not liking the large muskets, that is pure speculation. NDN's carried home the weapons and gear on fallen enemies, whether they kept them or sold them, it was a status symbol to have a gun over a bow and that means any gun he could get.There were hundreds of gun makers and thousands of customers, not every one wanted a cookie cutter gun made. At the end of the F&I War and the Rev, war surplus muskets were everywhere, English, Fench, Spanish military guns were bought by dealers and refited and sold. This has been done to military arms after every war. Cut down brown bess muskets were used by many on the frontier, cheap and available guns were sought by many who went west to find new lands. Regardless of the romantic notions by some gun builders not everyone carried a longrifle.
Surviving examples of early guns are limited because they were used up and discarded when newer guns were available. Books are great sources of information but only give one persons limited point of veiw and knowledge. Go to museums and look at what antique dealers have for sale and you will see examples of guns that actually exist, not just what some author says existed. It is a fact that short barrel muskets were used. It is a fact that some short barrelled muskets were purpose made and in full size calibers not just "carbine" calibers.These guns were not unique but made specifically for the board of ordenance by a variety of makers. Everyone needs to check the facts before making blanket statements as to what is PC/HC. If it was made in America or Europe it was used here.

 

[Mike Brooks]

If it was made in America or Europe it was used here.

Not according to many, if not all up to date sources.
Also, I could direct you to quite a few "one off" muskets that were made for the BO. That doesn't mean that more than a handful were ever made, or issued. That's why you see some of these odd ball guns in museums, they were never issued and tend to be in pristine condition. You'll always find odd ball stuff, but that doesn't mean it ever saw wide spread use.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

An excellent, informative post Flintlock75, but you have given more examples of all that has been said about "standard" thinking of short guns in the mid- to late 18th Century. All of the muskets are of standard .75 bore and all are well above the length of the of the so-called "carbine" that started this thread. None of these would be expected to show up here in North America in the mid-18th century. The French cavalry carbine in particular would not be here, the French influence in North America ended long before it was manufactured 1789 and since we have no idea what pattern it was, we have no way of knowing if it was even manufactured this way. The standard French carbine of that time was the M1777 and it had a 30" barrel with reduced in size lock and furniture and smaller than musket bore. The Paget Carbine was not even adopted into British service until 1808 but was, of course, of standard carbine caliber (.66) with reduced size lock and furniture so the example that started this thread can not be confused with it. You have made some good points about when and where some of the standard muskets "could have been" cut down and maybe they were. Something to think about certainly, but how common were they?

Also, I have always heard that the Rogers Rangers statements were legend, we'll have to disagree on that one. I would like to see the archaeologist's notes about their discovery as well as other such finds. And as far as the statement "If it was made in America or Europe it was used here.", I agree with Mike, not necessarily true and often very unlikely.
:wink:

 

[gizamo]

Thanks for the post,

As mentioned earlier, a good friend and knowledgeable dealer has offered to go with me to view the Maine State Museum collection. Evidently it is unique and would add a bit of depth to the discussion.

Unfortunately this month is shot, as I host a New England S&W collectors meeting and shoot at my private range. So I am going to pursue this in October and hopefully add something saliant to this discussion. I try to be lighthearted in all things guns ~ but this one is starting to get under my skin :hmm:

Giz

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It is and nearly always has almost certainly been somewhat clearly understood by persons both of great intellectual repute and matriculation as well as by those who merely are very wise and possessed of uncommon wit and common sense that the internal diameter of the shorter barrelled trade muskets only rarely exceeds that of its external diameter causing the shooter and often those nearby to shout loud imprecations to the heavens as their body parts are disconnected from their body proper. As has often been stated by knowledgeable early carbine buffs, it is unwise to shorten a fusil barrel past the last threads at the breech as this will leave you with only a breech plug and no place for powder and ball. It must be noted that this does have a great advantage in terms of weight savings. In fact, a Brown Bess "carbine" or "canoe gun" or "buffalo runner" or "blanket gun" can be given further weight savings by simply doing away with the gun altogether and when ready to fire simply pointing one's finger and shouting "Bang! Bang! You're dead!" The weight and cost savings are huge and you can carry this gun anywhere you want--except for New York City and perhaps California. And they say there's nothing new under the sun! :rotf: