gizamo said:
I know these guns are the subject of some great debates....as in are they historically correct...
From what I have seen/read, I believe they are. Especially in terms of Indian Trade guns...
I'd love to see that debate fired up again and view the current thinking...
So is it Deal, or No Deal :grin:
Giz
No deal. There is plenty of documentation, in the form of letters ordering very specific types of trade guns to rule out any military style of musket as being suitable for the NDN trade.
NDNs liked light guns, typically with long barrels of at least 38", but longer is the norm, with about 42" to 46" most common. Gauge wise, 20 to 14 bore is pretty common. A 12 isn't unheard of, just not as common.
Military muskets of the period were heavy, comparatively awkward in handling, typically with bores of .75 cal (11 ga), and often as large as 80 cal.
The trade gun at the link is a very common pattern throughout at least the last half of the 18th century.
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/Bumford_trade_gun.htm[/quote]
J.D.is correct here and to put it bluntly and as best I can, the so called Brown Bess carbine and its cousin the Brown Bess Indian trade guns are FANTASY guns.
As to the Indian trade guns as J.D. has correctly stated, Indians universally preferred light weight guns usually with long barrels.These were the Carolina/Type G guns which appeared early in the 18th century and lasted until the late 18th century and perhaps even later.The average weight was about 5-6 lbs. including the wooden ramrod. There is evidence that Eastern woodland Indians became enamored with rifles and acquired them whenever possible.Early rifles,either with rifling or as smooth rifles weighed on average about 9-9&1/2 lbs. but their increased accuracy overcame their increased weight compared with their trade gun counterparts.How widespread was the use of rifles by Indians is still the basis for much speculation.
The so called Brown Bess carbine being marketed is essentially a shortened Long Land Pattern musket and was likewise non existent. Traditionally the designation "carbine" referred to bore size rather than barrel length. Arms such as the 1745 Lord Loudon Carbine and the 1756 Light infantry Carbine had 42" barrels but had the nominal .65 cal. carbine bore.It should be noted that the Short Land Pattern musket which was put into service in 1769 as the primary infantry arm supplanting the Long Land Pattern musket was originally put into service as a Dragoon arm and was not classified as a musket..Some of these older Long Land musket barrel sections of up to 4 inches were found on Rogers Island probably as a result of deformed or damaged barrels.Even with the remaining barrels of about 42 inches the barrels of these guns were the same length as the 1744 short land Pattern musket which went into service initially in 1744 as a Dragoon weapon prior to its later introduction in 1769 as the primary Infantry musket.
Nevertheless there were some short barreled arms used by the British. These were:
1.1744 Horse{Cavalry} 37"bbl.
2.1756 Artillery 37" bbl.
3.1756 Artillery Officers 37" bbl.
4.1760 Eliot Light Dragoon 28" bbl.
5.1760-73 Royal Foresters 28" bbl.
6.1770 Royal Foresters 28" bbl.
7.1778 Sarjeant of Grenadiers 39" bbl.
It is not known how many if any of these these carbines saw service in America during either the Seven Years War or the American Revolution.
In addition there were some Sea Service weapons with short barrels intended for deck use aboard ship.
The information on the various muskets and carbines was taken from "Pattern Dates for British Ordnance Small Arms 1718-1783" by De Witt Bailey,Ph.D.
As always I welcome responsible opposing comment.
Tom Patton
