BP Substitute Questions

Discussion in 'Percussion Rifles' started by Eddie2002, Mar 29, 2019.

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  1. Mar 29, 2019 #1

    Eddie2002

    Eddie2002

    Eddie2002

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    I was given 8 one pound jugs of Pyrodex along with another six cans of black powder and am interested in using the Pyrodex in my .50 caliber Hawken cap lock for fun shooting. Been shooting black powder for a while and am curious as to what load I should start with using the substitute. I would also like to burn some up in a .50 caliber Traditions Kentucky pistol cap lock and am wondering about what load the pistol would need.
    I've heard iffy reports about using Pyrodex but since it was free I would like to give the stuff a try. I've #11 CCI magnum caps which should help touching the substitute off and have read about duplex loads with a few grains of BP loaded first to help get things going. Any thoughts on this are appreciated. Thanks
     
  2. Mar 29, 2019 #2

    58 Caliber

    58 Caliber

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    I have never used it and have only heard bad things about it so my advice would be don't use it. Something about percolates in it or it creates them when it ignites that eventually will pit your barrel no matter how well you clean. I am sure you will get a lot of input. Just my uneducated two cents worth. Good luck.

    Dave
     
  3. Mar 29, 2019 #3

    Phil Coffins

    Phil Coffins

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    Just use the same volume as what you use of black powder. These no magic to Pyrodex except clean very well with lots of water right after shooting. Don’t wait till later as it is corrosive despite having less fouling and use a heavier then WD 40 oil after cleaning.
     
  4. Mar 29, 2019 #4

    arcticap

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    Which granulation of Pyrodex?
    The granulation can sometimes affect the ignition, it depends on the gun and the size, type or length of the flash channel.
    Duplex loads can be used if needed.
    Magnum caps should also help to avoid to need to use duplex loads.
    There are also musket conversion nipples for many guns that allow the use of musket caps instead of #11's.
    But the hammer cup needs to be pretty well centered on the #11 nipple to help make for an easy, trouble free conversion.

    Do what you can to help coax the powder into the flash channel or drum such as by leaving the hammer on half cock and removing the spent cap before ramming,
    and by slapping the side of the gun with the flash channel [or drum] pointed downward after loading the powder but before ramming.

    Pyrodex seems to work best with consistent and heavy compression.
    A person can use ~10% less volume of Pyrodex P compared to the RS because it is faster, but also seems to burn cleaner.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
  5. Mar 29, 2019 #5

    Grenadier1758

    Grenadier1758

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    As Phil said earlier, Pyrodex is designed to use identical volume compared to black powder or about +10% less. Pyrodex leaves less apparent fouling, but what fouling it leaves is very corrosive. It will clean u with soap and water. Use a good rust inhibiting lubes such as Barricade. Pyrodex does not age well. If it has been exposed to water it gets weak in a hurry with no drying out.
     
  6. Mar 29, 2019 #6

    BrownBear

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    Then swab your bore with your favorite oil. Give it a week and run a dry patch down the bore and see if it comes back out with the faintest of rust stain. If you gottit, you didn't do a good enough job of cleaning. Do it again.

    Whole lotta guys get their nikkers in their crack about the stuff without ever trying it. Their nikkers and not mine. Lotta other guys live in parts of the world where real black is impossible to get, so if they don't use subs they don't shoot. They've figgered out how to use it and care for their guns, so it can be done. A gift of 8 pounds of Pyrodex is plenty good reason to learn how to do it yourself.

    Funny part is, the knotted nikkers on the question are NOTHING compared to the same guys knots when they try to fly out to some remote place for the hunt of a lifetime and can't get real black. And they haven't a CLUE how to use the subs and care for their guns. Seems like now is a pretty good chance for you to learn, cuzz some day you too may need to use a sub.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
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  7. Mar 29, 2019 #7

    Eddie2002

    Eddie2002

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    I checked the jugs and they are a mix of both 2F and 3F equivalent. All the jugs are still factory sealed and I'm not planning on opening them till I need to use them. I'll try the 2F in the Hawken and 3F for the pistol. Been using Bore Butter as a patch lube and plan to keep using it for now and will spray the bores down with Remington Oil till I get home and clean them. The Hawken is a beater CVA I reconditioned and shoots fine, picked up a 6th place at a 100 yd free hand shoot in January with it which gave me a chuckle considering what everybody else was shooting. I'll start with the standard 50 grains of 2F for the .50 caliber rifle and 25 of grains of 3F for the pistol. Not sure when I will get out to the range. thanks for the help.
     
  8. Mar 29, 2019 #8

    Kansas Jake

    Kansas Jake

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    Eddie, it sounds like you are off to a decent start. I've also shot pyrodex using spit patches just like I do with BP. I have a few pounds of Pyrodex around and have not had problems using it. I don't worry too much about magnum caps etc. either. I use it for plinking and just fun shooting. I'm too cheap to just throw it away. I also haven't had deterioration problems that I can tell when I've kept the containers tight. Of course I haven't chronographed it but don't sense any change.
     
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  9. Mar 29, 2019 #9

    Eutycus

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    To be honest I've never shot anything but Pyrodex. From what I can tell there's nothing wrong with it. Yes it is corrosive but arent they all? I was just going to suggest to start with the 50gr. For the 50 caliber but I saw your last sentance. Good luck and with a little experimenting you'll do fine.
    I apolgize in advance if I'm sending duplicate replys. I've already pushed the reply button twice on this tablet that I'm using and so far nothing has happened, or has it?
     
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  10. Mar 29, 2019 #10

    Howard Pippin

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    Hi Eddie. I first got into muzzleloader shooting about 1988, when I was given a Thompson Center cap lock by my children. The only powder I used until I bought a Flintlock 15 years later was pyrodex. I don't understand all the concerns about using it, I killed deer, I took part in shoots, and never had any problem in what I did. I used strictly 1000 lube for patches For round balls, also shot r.e.a.l. Lee maxi balls. For cleaning I used Thompson Center 1000 lube and boiling hot water. Still have the same gun and it still works. With the Flintlock I had to start using blackpowder and have since. I also have a couple of black powder pistols that I use whatever I want in them. I would load and hunt deer for several days without cleaning, even after firing a shot or two. I don't know about the rust problem, perhaps being that the weather is pretty dry in Montana it was less apt to draw moisture. An older friend I had that head a muzzleloader, starting about 1970, only used pyrodex also. Though he is gone, the gun is still out there, and still on pyrodex, As you can't hardly buy blackpowder in Montana. A club I belong to has a member that sometimes goes traveling and brings back some blackpowder. I have decided that if I run out I will place my own order and have it shipped in. I've never had a problem with the pyrodex drawing moisture or getting old, and that could be because of our dry climate also. Others have their own experience but it wasn't the same as mine.
    Howard
     
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  11. Mar 29, 2019 #11

    Britsmoothy

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    Used it for years before I switched.
    Clean with boiling water to dissolve the salts and you'll be fine.
     
  12. Mar 29, 2019 #12

    BlackHillsBob

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    here is the skinny on pyrodex to make it shoot. it is very very spongy as black powder is not. when you put the ball down on pyrodex, just put the ball down with the very same pressure without tamping it at all. that way you may get accuracy. as said above it is really able to rot your gun barrel and parts it gets on, clean very well when done. black powder is not spongy but just put the ball on the powder with out tamping also. black powder is way more accurate. when i quit using pyrodex i poured it all on my flower beds. good fertilizer. i would recommend the same to you. use the black powder and fertilize the garden with the other stuff.some have good accuracy with p pyrodex and heavy bullets but real black is the best by far.
     
  13. Mar 29, 2019 #13

    QuinnTheEskimo

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    I used Pyrodex for years, it was all I could get my hands on. I still prefer Pyrodex to Triple 7. I never had any trouble getting it to go off.
     
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  14. Mar 29, 2019 #14

    TFoley

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    Pyrodex P is for pistol - it's about 3Fg

    Pyrodex RS is for rifle and shotgun [that's what the R and the S stands for]. It's a bit coarser.

    I've been using both in my rifles and pistols since the late 70's. Good if you can't get BP easy. My advice is to start the cleaning process on the range before you bag up your guns.
     
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  15. Mar 29, 2019 #15

    Rat

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    If it is in sealed containers, one should be able to sell it. I have used it, and 777, (which is really junk, IMHO) and found that there's sure no advantage to the substitutes, and many problems, even though some like it and use it. Sure, it will work. I suppose one could run one's vehicle on kerosene, if someone gave them 500 gallons of it, and be okay with it...but why? Why use something inferior, if you don't have to? There must be a reason someone gave it to you. I gave my brother all my Pyrodex years ago....because black is superior.
     
  16. Mar 29, 2019 #16

    Eutycus

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    Availability of a product has a lot to do with "who--uses --what". Alot of stores only carry substitutes or synthetics. That is actually why Pyrodex was developed wasnt it? The ease in storage.
     
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  17. Mar 30, 2019 #17

    arcticap

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    Rather than use duplex loads of it with black powder, try using a duplex charge of the Pyrodex P 3F under the RS in both guns.
    I prefer P in many guns and calibers.
    Its fine uniform granulation flows better into many flash channels and drums.
    Just use a nipple pick to clean the nipple hole once in while.
    And don't leave the lid off the containers.
     
  18. Mar 30, 2019 #18

    tenngun

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    We often say you can’t get deader then dead. Well you can’t get rustier then rust. Clean your gun when your done shooting. My range I shoot at is about forty five min away. I swab and dry bore wipe down barrel and lock before I drive home. Then get home and do a full cleaning and oiling.
    Real black,or make believe black, is corrosion in a can.
     
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  19. Mar 30, 2019 #19

    BrownBear

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    My range is about 2 minutes away, and I agree completely. You're already at the range with all your "stuff" laid out, so why not give the bore an immediate and thorough swabbing? Sure saves on the mess at home, making me at least bearable, and maybe even popular with my wife. :)
     
  20. Mar 30, 2019 #20

    Grenadier1758

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    Before you buy a lot of 0.530" or 0.535" balls, measure the bore first.

    Oops, thinking of another thread.
     

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