All of this misinformation is really getting old

[LME]

I think "Seasoning" the bore may have come from the old days when barrels were made from Iron and not Steel. But it still makes me wonder.... They make PTFE (Teflon) additives for your engine. The idea being that it will permeat the steel and reduce friction. I haven't seen any documentation that it actually works but it's a great theory.

The last time I checked, most steel likes petroleum.

If you use all the latest bottles,cans and what ever the latest and greatest additive for a motor is you need to remember one fact! "They don't put a mechanic in any container . to fix something you have to work on the problem"! This is a quote from my father.

 

[Flinter 2]

Been around for a long time (69 years), I have eaten foods cooked in unseasoned cast iron, it does make food taste metallic. Iron skillets are seasoned not just to seal the pores but to make them not stick too. We always used two skillets, one for meat, the other for potatoes. Cook potatoes in the meat skillet, they stick and vice versa.

I don’t claim to know it all, just relaying real world experience.

Congrats on making it this far my friend, I just turned 78 this year and I'm fortunate enough to have much of the Cast Iron cookware that my mother and grand mother used in their kitchens, all seasoned nicely and in like new condition, Grizwold, Erie, Wagner Sidney, some early Lodge, and a bunch of economy unmarked pieces made by the they name brand makers.
I still use most of them on a regular basis, and once in a while I run across a piece that's been neglected and I'll buy it and revive it.
Just this morning I made bacon, home fries, and over easy eggs all in the same eight inch Grizwold skillet, no sticking, and cleaned up great with hot tap water and a nylon brush.

 

[BP Addict]

In Summation I, like others have enjoyed this thread but it not only seems to have run its course but in essence proves the point of the OP!

There are exceptions to every rule and many Muzzle Loading Arms seem to have a “personality” of their own. Regardless of what you’ve read or been told, they like what they like and there is not always a “One size Fits All”, remedy.

The fact that the ball travels down the rifling on a cloth patch and hits its mark in itself, is a Paradox!

I’ve heard it all and even succumbed to some of it:

“Never use anything Petroleum based. Use something Natural so you can “Season” the Bore”. (By the way, every “Natural” Product out there is PROCESSED, except SPIT! You don’t squeeze an olive and put the oil on your patch or in the bore. You also don’t take a piece of animal fat and do the same!)

“Blow down the Barrel to put out any embers and soften the fouling and the opposite, “Don’t do that. It’s dangerous. You could blow your head off!”.

“Wipe in between shots with a damp cleaning patch”

“Spit is for Target Shooting. Lube is for Hunting”

“Never take a pinned barrel out of the stock to clean it. It will warp the stock”. It will wear out the pin holes”. “It won’t shoot straight again”.

“Never shorten a barrel at the Muzzle end. Always cut it down from the breach”.

“Never cone a muzzle. It’ll have ill effects on accuracy”.

The list goes on and on. There are folks who have been violating these acclimates for years and still shooting 10Xs at the range!

The important thing is to try and bring new people in to the ranks and teach them the best way we know how. If something new comes along, try it. If it doesn’t, change it. Sometimes it’s a matter of separating the truth from the BS! That’s the advantage of Muzzle Loading. Trying different things to get it to do what you want it to do with the best of results.

Like I said before, there’s something here for everyone. It all depends on what you want to do and how deep or historically accurate you want to get. Many people just like playing dress up for a week to get away from the Hustle and Bustle of life. Some never shoot a gun! Others want to share and teach History. Marksmen and Women are out for the best scores to win the prizes. Some just want an additional or easier hunt (For Black Tail Deer in Oregon, it’s either sex) or to use the methods of our Forefathers.

I’ve been doing what I’ve been doing for years and my guns are all in great shape, even the ones I purchased used. I’ve also bought some that were shot and never cleaned (either by an ill described Auction or yard sale). It makes me want to find that person, strip them down, role them in ash and let them sit until the lye starts eating at their flesh! A little dramatic but you get the point.

Britsmoothy’s methods work for him. I know a Gentleman who doesn’t believe in removing the nipple and clean-out screw. Same for a Touch Hole Liner. He believes that the Solvent he uses neutralizes the salts so that the residue won’t hurt the metal. The fouling then acts as a sealer so that he never has to remove those items again and they’ll never leak gasses, etc. When I clean a cap-lock barrel, the area in the drum is reduced much like a clogged pipe or artery. That “void” was designed to carry as much spark to the main charge as possible. Restricting that could cause mis-fires, in my opinion. You couldn't change his mind if you tried! He's been doing it that way for decades.

Lastly, just because your way works for you, doesn’t mean my way is WRONG! Shoot straight and true, Amigos!

 

[LME]

It may be natural in that way, but it's still petroleum, and BP doesn't mix well with BP fouling, it induces rust, so if you want to Keep It Simple for newbies by feeding them bad information it's on you, I'd rather be honest and give them a hand to understand.

How does petroleum induce rust? Oil doesn't mix with water? I have been at this game for quite a while,49 years to be exact and have used oil on all my weapons with no problems? I use it to prevent rusting?

 

[ML48]

I've shot my custom long rifles Rifles and smoothbore fowlers all day long at woods walks and line shoots and let them set for a few days until I had the time to clean them, all I use to clean mine are T/C 13 solvent (usually three patches and one to dry, then I lube them with a patch saturated with T/C yellow bore butter, I usually take the lock out and clean that in the same way, and that's it, I live in a high humidity climate in southern New England not far from the ocean, I've been caring for my BP guns that way for more than three decades and they are still rust free, maybe I'm just lucky.

No such thing as luck.....only good fortune, and the fact you take good care and maintenance of your guns. No rocket science involved.

 

[BP Addict]

If you use all the latest bottles,cans and what ever the latest and greatest additive for a motor is you need to remember one fact! "They don't put a mechanic in any container . to fix something you have to work on the problem"! This is a quote from my father.

And a wise man he was!!!

 

[Newtire]

When Lincoln was out testing a Spencer rifle with its inventor, an obviously knowledgeable bystander was heard to remark: "a good rifle gun should recoil forward...."

It must be because of the pull effect of that deep rifling then I reckon? Makes sense a little teeny bit

 

[Britsmoothy]

How does petroleum induce rust? Oil doesn't mix with water? I have been at this game for quite a while,49 years to be exact and have used oil on all my weapons with no problems? I use it to prevent rusting?

Because it can not carry the salts the salts over time separate from the oil. The salt separate the oil from the steel then, overtime absorb moisture from the air to form beads of corrosive liquid.

If you can guarantee you removed all the salts your safe. But the day you miss some!
That is why I use very hot water. The energy in the very hot water dissolves salts quicker than cold.
Flash rust everyone gets their panties twisted up about is a mere tarnish soon removed.

 

[Britsmoothy]

The other known fact is that most petroleum products react the combusted black powder to form a tar like substance.
In fact any petroleum oil will become a sticky tar like substance from smokeless combustion byproducts. The number one cause for automatic shotguns failing in cold weather is oil that has gummed up thus.
I'll tell you what is a myth, water! Or the fear that it is the root cause of all harm.
Most are petrified of water when it comes to firearms, especially muzzleloaders. It's not the water any of you should be worrying about! It's salts. When you come to that realisation you will approach it all differently!
Another myth is that wd40 displaces water. It dosnt.
Fill a glass with water, now squirt that vile substance on it and see how much water leaves the glass!
No water will leave the glass.
All it does is help water keep its surface tension thus aiding water to stay as a droplet that can roll away with the aid of gravity.
It will not magically make water dissappear from the bottom of your muzzleloader barrel!
Heat will though!

 

[kje54]

The other known fact is that most petroleum products react the combusted black powder to form a tar like substance.
In fact any petroleum oil will become a sticky tar like substance from smokeless combustion byproducts. The number one cause for automatic shotguns failing in cold weather is oil that has gummed up thus.
I'll tell you what is a myth, water!
Most are petrified of water when it comes to firearms, especially muzzleloaders. It's not the water any of you should be worrying about! It's salts. When you come to that realisation you will approach it all differently!
Another myth is that wd40 displaces water. It dosnt.
Fill a glass with water, now squirt that vile substance on it and see how much water leaves the glass!
No water will leave the glass.
All it does is help water keep its surface tension thus aiding water to stay as a droplet that can roll away with the aid of gravity.
It will not magically make water dissappear from the bottom of your muzzleloader barrel!
Heat will though!

Speaking of magic, I'm an alchemist, I can turn gold into lead..........

 

[ML48]

Speaking of magic, I'm an alchemist, I can turn gold into lead..........

That's really cool. But, when you figure how to turn lead in to gold, I'll be up there in a hurry

 

[mushka]

I use water to clean the barrel of my MZ guns just as I use water to clean all my iron cook ware. I never use soap of any kind on a gun or cook ware. I use light machine oil to preserve gun barrels with good success and animal fats to season and preserve my iron cook ware. Gun steel likes petroleum products and iron ware likes animal and natural fats. This has worked for me for the last 60 or so years.

 

[LME]

Because it can not carry the salts the salts over time separate from the oil. The salt separate the oil from the steel then, overtime absorb moisture from the air to form beads of corrosive liquid.

If you can guarantee you removed all the salts your safe. But the day you miss some!
That is why I use very hot water. The energy in the very hot water dissolves salts quicker than cold.
Flash rust everyone gets their panties twisted up about is a mere tarnish soon removed.

I don't know about the first part of your post but I do agree with the part about flash rust!

 

[LME]

Because it can not carry the salts the salts over time separate from the oil. The salt separate the oil from the steel then, overtime absorb moisture from the air to form beads of corrosive liquid.

If you can guarantee you removed all the salts your safe. But the day you miss some!
That is why I use very hot water. The energy in the very hot water dissolves salts quicker than cold.
Flash rust everyone gets their panties twisted up about is a mere tarnish soon removed.

I think I get it? I also clean with hot water. Then I use a liberal amount of oil all over my rifle. I do check the barrel in a week or a couple of days with a clean patch. If it was to have even a hint of stain whether it be rust or something else I would clean it again. I haven't had to do that so far.

 

[kje54]

That's really cool. But, when you figure how to turn lead in to gold, I'll be up there in a hurry

Ya gotta buy lead balls or make your own don'tcha.............? Lead costs money.

 

[BP Addict]

The other known fact is that most petroleum products react the combusted black powder to form a tar like substance.
In fact any petroleum oil will become a sticky tar like substance from smokeless combustion byproducts. The number one cause for automatic shotguns failing in cold weather is oil that has gummed up thus.
I'll tell you what is a myth, water! Or the fear that it is the root cause of all harm.
Most are petrified of water when it comes to firearms, especially muzzleloaders. It's not the water any of you should be worrying about! It's salts. When you come to that realisation you will approach it all differently!
Another myth is that wd40 displaces water. It dosnt.
Fill a glass with water, now squirt that vile substance on it and see how much water leaves the glass!
No water will leave the glass.
All it does is help water keep its surface tension thus aiding water to stay as a droplet that can roll away with the aid of gravity.
It will not magically make water dissappear from the bottom of your muzzleloader barrel!
Heat will though!

You keep stating “Facts”. Where’s your proof? Where’s the studies?

tar1 - /tär/
Definition: a dark, thick, flammable liquid distilled from wood or coal, consisting of a mixture of hydrocarbons, resins, alcohols, and other compounds. It is used in roadmaking and for coating and preserving timber.

The amount of oil used to protect a barrel is wiped out before it’s loaded. So, no foul (pun intended)! The amount on a patch would not be sufficient to turn the mixture to “tar” and even if it did, wiping between shots would take care of the majority of that.

While I’m on that subject no, a few drops of WD40 would not displace an ENTIRE glass of water. To believe that is Folly! Take a glass of WD40 and add a few drops of water and see what happens. It displaces “Moisture*”, which I suspect would be very hard to quantify as you have done.

*mois·ture - /ˈmoisCHər/
Definition: water or other liquid diffused in a small quantity as vapor, within a solid, or condensed on a surface. "The air was constantly heavy with moisture"

By the way, most malfunctions in modern guns are caused by TOO MUCH oil and not the presence thereof, especially Semi-Automatics!

The remainder of this was going to be my second response to your claims from yesterday but thought it better just to try and close this subject. But if you insist………….

Shooting for several days without cleaning:

This is from the Thompson Center Owner’s Manual under “Cleaning”. I’m sure Traditions, Lyman, Pedersoli and others have the same. This is what we’ve been told from the beginning of our adventure in to Muzzleloading. “Black Powder and Pyrodex are very corrosive, and the residue or fouling left over in the bore after firing your firearm can be very destructive to the steel, causing oxidation, rust, and pitting. Leaving your firearm uncleaned with this fouling present can lead to a ruined firearm.”

Why aren’t there more Pristine original “Working Man’s” Guns available or in Museums/Collections. Did Kendig only like Long Rifles owned by the Wealthy and Affluent? Did he find “Barn Guns and Poorboys boring? Or was it because they couldn’t hold up to not being cleaned, regularly? ** Or maintained using the old methods? I can’t say as I’d be guessing. Food for thought and maybe another thread, I suppose……

**The longest I’ve gone without cleaning my Black Powder firearm is one day and only after a good field cleaning before putting it in its case and taking it home. So, you would never see any of my Muzzle Loaders not cleaned after several days of shooting!

Use only Natural Products:

Olives are Natural. Olive (Sweet) Oil is a By-Product! You don’t squeeze the olive to put it on the patch or in the bore! Then go one step further by heating it and adding Bees Wax to thicken it and it’s processed even further. Even Bear Grease is rendered. The only thing truly “Natural” lube is spit!!!! But I wouldn’t use it to protect my bore! Let’s dig deeper, shall we?

How is olive oil made (step by step)?

CLEANING THE OLIVES. The first step in the oil extraction process is cleaning the olives and removing the stems, leaves, twigs, and other debris left with the olives. ...
GRINDING*** THE OLIVES INTO A PASTE. ...
MALAXING**** THE PASTE. ...
SEPARATING THE OIL FROM THE VEGETABLE WATER AND SOLIDS.

***grind·ing /ˈɡrīndiNG/ - adjective: grinding
1. the reduction of something to small particles or powder by crushing it. "The roasting and grinding of grain, usually barley, for use in brewing". See Milling, also!

****In olive oil extraction, malaxation (Latin malaxare, Greek μαλακος meaning "soft") is the action of slowly churning or mixing milled olives, typically for 20 to 40 minutes. The churning allows the smaller droplets of oil released by the milling process to aggregate and be more easily separated.

Natural oils neutralize salts:

They absorb them. If I put I put any kind of “Natural” oil in a skillet, add salt and stir fry some vegetables, believe me, I’d TASTE the salt and my body would still make use of it!

Your “Old Timey” Ways are great and historically correct for guns made from “IRON”, which is porous. Our modern guns are made of STEEL and steel likes oil! I can put “Sweet Oil” in my truck engine. Would it work? Probably, but would it be the best thing for it? I doubt that!

I’m not try to turn this in to a “Pissing Contest” but there are holes in your theories. We could go back and forth forever. The bottom line is I’m not going to convince you any more than you’re going to convince me. We like what we like!

Now, if you have degrees in Chemistry and Biochemistry, I’ll cease my ramblings and retract everything I’ve said. Can we close this thread now and put it to rest?

Best Regards!

Walt

 

[Flinter 2]

You keep stating “Facts”. Where’s your proof? Where’s the studies?

tar1 - /tär/
Definition: a dark, thick, flammable liquid distilled from wood or coal, consisting of a mixture of hydrocarbons, resins, alcohols, and other compounds. It is used in roadmaking and for coating and preserving timber.

The amount of oil used to protect a barrel is wiped out before it’s loaded. So, no foul (pun intended)! The amount on a patch would not be sufficient to turn the mixture to “tar” and even if it did, wiping between shots would take care of the majority of that.

While I’m on that subject no, a few drops of WD40 would not displace an ENTIRE glass of water. To believe that is Folly! Take a glass of WD40 and add a few drops of water and see what happens. It displaces “Moisture*”, which I suspect would be very hard to quantify as you have done.

*mois·ture - /ˈmoisCHər/
Definition: water or other liquid diffused in a small quantity as vapor, within a solid, or condensed on a surface. "The air was constantly heavy with moisture"

By the way, most malfunctions in modern guns are caused by TOO MUCH oil and not the presence thereof, especially Semi-Automatics!

The remainder of this was going to be my second response to your claims from yesterday but thought it better just to try and close this subject. But if you insist………….

Shooting for several days without cleaning:

This is from the Thompson Center Owner’s Manual under “Cleaning”. I’m sure Traditions, Lyman, Pedersoli and others have the same. This is what we’ve been told from the beginning of our adventure in to Muzzleloading. “Black Powder and Pyrodex are very corrosive, and the residue or fouling left over in the bore after firing your firearm can be very destructive to the steel, causing oxidation, rust, and pitting. Leaving your firearm uncleaned with this fouling present can lead to a ruined firearm.”

Why aren’t there more Pristine original “Working Man’s” Guns available or in Museums/Collections. Did Kendig only like Long Rifles owned by the Wealthy and Affluent? Did he find “Barn Guns and Poorboys boring? Or was it because they couldn’t hold up to not being cleaned, regularly? ** Or maintained using the old methods? I can’t say as I’d be guessing. Food for thought and maybe another thread, I suppose……

**The longest I’ve gone without cleaning my Black Powder firearm is one day and only after a good field cleaning before putting it in its case and taking it home. So, you would never see any of my Muzzle Loaders not cleaned after several days of shooting!

Use only Natural Products:

Olives are Natural. Olive (Sweet) Oil is a By-Product! You don’t squeeze the olive to put it on the patch or in the bore! Then go one step further by heating it and adding Bees Wax to thicken it and it’s processed even further. Even Bear Grease is rendered. The only thing truly “Natural” lube is spit!!!! But I wouldn’t use it to protect my bore! Let’s dig deeper, shall we?

How is olive oil made (step by step)?

CLEANING THE OLIVES. The first step in the oil extraction process is cleaning the olives and removing the stems, leaves, twigs, and other debris left with the olives. ...
GRINDING*** THE OLIVES INTO A PASTE. ...
MALAXING**** THE PASTE. ...
SEPARATING THE OIL FROM THE VEGETABLE WATER AND SOLIDS.

***grind·ing /ˈɡrīndiNG/ - adjective: grinding
1. the reduction of something to small particles or powder by crushing it. "The roasting and grinding of grain, usually barley, for use in brewing". See Milling, also!

****In olive oil extraction, malaxation (Latin malaxare, Greek μαλακος meaning "soft") is the action of slowly churning or mixing milled olives, typically for 20 to 40 minutes. The churning allows the smaller droplets of oil released by the milling process to aggregate and be more easily separated.

Natural oils neutralize salts:

They absorb them. If I put I put any kind of “Natural” oil in a skillet, add salt and stir fry some vegetables, believe me, I’d TASTE the salt and my body would still make use of it!

Your “Old Timey” Ways are great and historically correct for guns made from “IRON”, which is porous. Our modern guns are made of STEEL and steel likes oil! I can put “Sweet Oil” in my truck engine. Would it work? Probably, but would it be the best thing for it? I doubt that!

I’m not try to turn this in to a “Pissing Contest” but there are holes in your theories. We could go back and forth forever. The bottom line is I’m not going to convince you any more than you’re going to convince me. We like what we like!

Now, if you have degrees in Chemistry and Biochemistry, I’ll cease my ramblings and retract everything I’ve said. Can we close this thread now and put it to rest?

Best Regards!

Walt

No disrespect intended Walt, but generally when someone goes to the length and anger that seems to be apparent in the above post it's a pretty good indication that they aren't sure that their argument is based on a solid footing.
But that said, no one is forcing you to use what you don't want to to clean or lube your muzzle loaders, that's what's great about this country, we are still free to use what ever products we like (at least for this week anyway), and still free to hold our own opinions about what works and what doesn't.

 

[Britsmoothy]

You keep stating “Facts”. Where’s your proof? Where’s the studies?

tar1 - /tär/
Definition: a dark, thick, flammable liquid distilled from wood or coal, consisting of a mixture of hydrocarbons, resins, alcohols, and other compounds. It is used in roadmaking and for coating and preserving timber.

The amount of oil used to protect a barrel is wiped out before it’s loaded. So, no foul (pun intended)! The amount on a patch would not be sufficient to turn the mixture to “tar” and even if it did, wiping between shots would take care of the majority of that.

While I’m on that subject no, a few drops of WD40 would not displace an ENTIRE glass of water. To believe that is Folly! Take a glass of WD40 and add a few drops of water and see what happens. It displaces “Moisture*”, which I suspect would be very hard to quantify as you have done.

*mois·ture - /ˈmoisCHər/
Definition: water or other liquid diffused in a small quantity as vapor, within a solid, or condensed on a surface. "The air was constantly heavy with moisture"

By the way, most malfunctions in modern guns are caused by TOO MUCH oil and not the presence thereof, especially Semi-Automatics!

The remainder of this was going to be my second response to your claims from yesterday but thought it better just to try and close this subject. But if you insist………….

Shooting for several days without cleaning:

This is from the Thompson Center Owner’s Manual under “Cleaning”. I’m sure Traditions, Lyman, Pedersoli and others have the same. This is what we’ve been told from the beginning of our adventure in to Muzzleloading. “Black Powder and Pyrodex are very corrosive, and the residue or fouling left over in the bore after firing your firearm can be very destructive to the steel, causing oxidation, rust, and pitting. Leaving your firearm uncleaned with this fouling present can lead to a ruined firearm.”

Why aren’t there more Pristine original “Working Man’s” Guns available or in Museums/Collections. Did Kendig only like Long Rifles owned by the Wealthy and Affluent? Did he find “Barn Guns and Poorboys boring? Or was it because they couldn’t hold up to not being cleaned, regularly? ** Or maintained using the old methods? I can’t say as I’d be guessing. Food for thought and maybe another thread, I suppose……

**The longest I’ve gone without cleaning my Black Powder firearm is one day and only after a good field cleaning before putting it in its case and taking it home. So, you would never see any of my Muzzle Loaders not cleaned after several days of shooting!

Use only Natural Products:

Olives are Natural. Olive (Sweet) Oil is a By-Product! You don’t squeeze the olive to put it on the patch or in the bore! Then go one step further by heating it and adding Bees Wax to thicken it and it’s processed even further. Even Bear Grease is rendered. The only thing truly “Natural” lube is spit!!!! But I wouldn’t use it to protect my bore! Let’s dig deeper, shall we?

How is olive oil made (step by step)?

CLEANING THE OLIVES. The first step in the oil extraction process is cleaning the olives and removing the stems, leaves, twigs, and other debris left with the olives. ...
GRINDING*** THE OLIVES INTO A PASTE. ...
MALAXING**** THE PASTE. ...
SEPARATING THE OIL FROM THE VEGETABLE WATER AND SOLIDS.

***grind·ing /ˈɡrīndiNG/ - adjective: grinding
1. the reduction of something to small particles or powder by crushing it. "The roasting and grinding of grain, usually barley, for use in brewing". See Milling, also!

****In olive oil extraction, malaxation (Latin malaxare, Greek μαλακος meaning "soft") is the action of slowly churning or mixing milled olives, typically for 20 to 40 minutes. The churning allows the smaller droplets of oil released by the milling process to aggregate and be more easily separated.

Your “Old Timey” Ways are great and historically correct for guns made from “IRON”, which is porous. Our modern guns are made of STEEL and steel likes oil! I can put “Sweet Oil” in my truck engine. Would it work? Probably, but would it be the best thing for it? I doubt that!

I’m not try to turn this in to a “Pissing Contest” but there are holes in your theories. We could go back and forth forever. The bottom line is I’m not going to convince you any more than you’re going to convince me. We like what we like!

Now, if you have degrees in Chemistry and Biochemistry, I’ll cease my ramblings and retract everything I’ve said. Can we close this thread now and put it to rest?

Best Regards!

Walt

#1.
black powder fowling mixed with petroleum based oils will and does produce a sticky tar LIKE substance.
#2.
Add a few drops of water to a glass of vile wd40 and they will sink to the bottom of the glass.
#3
Natural oils have not gone through distillation processes.
Just presses or warmed at low temperature ( relative to a petroleum refinery, distillery).
#4.
A manufacturer will make that statement to avoid liability charges made against them. Because someone somewhere will blame anyone other than themselves for their own ignorance.
#5
Barn guns, commonly of cap lock, often surplus military caplocks used corrosive primers. Far more corrosive than black powder fouling.
#6
Natural oils do indeed work on steel as they did iron.
Ever heard of CastrolR oil for engines. Castor oil based.
Food industry use Natural based lubrication on their machinery
#7
No qualifications.
Just 30plus years of using hot water, no petroleum lubricant and just animal or vegetable oils and fats (aka natural oils or fats). Oh and no swabbing and no pitting in my barrels

 

[BP Addict]

No disrespect intended Walt, but generally when someone goes to the length and anger that seems to be apparent in the above post it's a pretty good indication that they aren't sure that their argument is based on a solid footing.
But that said, no one is forcing you to use what you don't want to to clean or lube your muzzle loaders, that's what's great about this country, we are still free to use what ever products we like (at least for this week anyway), and still free to hold our own opinions about what works and what doesn't.

I know and I'm not angry. This whole thread was about, truths myths, rumors and hearsay. Opinions without facts are just that. Nuf said!

Walt

 

[RAEDWALD]

Hello,
You have not forgotten anything from your sixty years of shooting, just like me and I congratulate you for it.......
All the French weapons and mainly the old military weapons after the Revolution of 1789 are in millimeter and it is an exact fact ......
We also have our French "grain" that, by my job, I used as well as the "inches" (27,07mm instead of 25,4mm now) which are French measures now little used except in certain trades of which mine: I was a watchmaker-jeweler, thus.... ....
The grain is theoretically an old unit of mass representing a seventy-second of "Gros", worth about 53.114 milligrams in France (division of the Paris pound). It is approximately the mass of a good grain of barley or wheat. For pharmacists, the scruple is worth 24 grains.
In jewelry and watchmaking, the grain is still used in its decimal definition worth 49 milligrams (about 1/576 of an ounce of avoirdupois or a little less than a quarter of a carat), to express the weight of batches of pearls or oriental diamonds.
This aside, I used the expression "American grain" because we are on an American forum, but I could be wrong, and on an English forum I would have said "English grain"...
To come back to weapons, it is true that the military culture imposes/ did impose a particular language, for example a .50 caliber in the army becomes a 12.7mm caliber...
For the rest of the population and the civilians that we are, a .50 caliber is a .50 caliber, a .22 caliber is a .22 caliber, a .45-70 is a .45-70, a .45-70-500 is a .45-70-500, etc..., etc..... Never millimeters in calibers: always fractions of an inch and grains.
Never a question of powder weight: always grains. Imagine, just for fun, a 45mm caliber loaded with 70 grams of black powder or a 45mm caliber.
The military used to say, a long time ago now: caliber 11.43mm for caliber .45, but that was a long time ago and only for military weapons...
In short, apart from these few particular cases, the good people always give, as far as weapons and ammunition are concerned, the caliber in fractions of an inch and the weights in grains, which is logical since calibers and weights are given in fractions of an inch and weights in grains since the beginning of their existence.................. except for a few rare guys diehards in the process of disappearing for whom it is always necessary to make the conversions in metric so that they understand, but there, it is another history.......

PS: you will certainly find a lot of mistakes that need to be corrected and I apologize, this explanation in a language that is not really my native language has been for me quite long and complicated, in general I do shorter, with as many mistakes, but much shorter ....

I recall that visiting my grandparents in France I would see fruit and vegetables in small country markets sold by the pound (poid) and things measured in inches (pouce) and the vaguest recollection of something (cloth?) sold by the foot (pied). But that was a very long time ago when there were peasants dressed in working blue clothes still to be commonly seen. Each with a regulation stub of Gauloise or Disque Bleu cigarette glued to the lower lip. All very different now living in France these days. Bravo for your comments Erwan. Merci bien.