All of this misinformation is really getting old

[BP Addict]

Of all the relatively debatable statements, this is one of the least totally bogus. While not necessarily the most optimum load, the powder over the ball in your palm will be a usable load.

It is also interesting in that most of those statements do not address the conditions and purpose for which the rifle is to be used.

Boiling hot water will clean the black powder fouling, but so will tepid tap water with a squirt of dish washing detergent.

"Seasoning" the bore is totally useless.

Avoiding petroleum based oils is another myth. We use WD40, Rem oil, Ballistol, Barricade, EEZOX, RIG and a host of other oils. I get the same crusty ring with Ballistol and water for a patch lube as I get with bee's wax and olive oil.

How much powder one loads with and ball or conical will determine how hard the rifle kicks.

Hearing tales such as your customer is spouting can be quite humorous and falls into the out of context thread.

I think "Seasoning" the bore may have come from the old days when barrels were made from Iron and not Steel. But it still makes me wonder.... They make PTFE (Teflon) additives for your engine. The idea being that it will permeat the steel and reduce friction. I haven't seen any documentation that it actually works but it's a great theory.

The last time I checked, most steel likes petroleum.

 

[Flinter 2]

I think "Seasoning" the bore may have come from the old days when barrels were made from Iron and not Steel. But it still makes me wonder.... They make PTFE (Teflon) additives for your engine. The idea being that it will permeat the steel and reduce friction. I haven't seen any documentation that it actually works but it's a great theory.

The last time I checked, most steel likes petroleum.

You are right BP Addict, most if not all steels like Petroleum, but BP does not,
I've been at this muzzle loading game for more years than most members here have been alive, I quit using petroleum based cleaning agents and lubes in my BP guns over 30 years ago and have not experienced one speck of rust on or in my BP guns since.
The old timers back in the 16th, 17th. and 18th centuries and before had it right, they used Whale oil, Tallow, and other natural lubes to keep their guns in good order.
Today there are plenty of BP cleaning solvents and lubes made out of natural food grade materials, there's no reason to worry about rusting of your favorite smoke poles any more.
And in spite of what the adds say, substitute powders are more corrosive than real BP.

 

[Flinter 2]

I think "Seasoning" the bore may have come from the old days when barrels were made from Iron and not Steel. But it still makes me wonder.... They make PTFE (Teflon) additives for your engine. The idea being that it will permeat the steel and reduce friction. I haven't seen any documentation that it actually works but it's a great theory.

The last time I checked, most steel likes petroleum.

Not for nothing, but, most reenactors, traditional campers, and many backpackers love their "Cool Handle" steel frying pans because of their light weight, good cooking properties, and because they can be seasoned almost as well as their cast iron counterparts.
So, if steel pans can be seasoned, why not steel rifle and smoothbores bores as well, I've been using T/C / Ox Yoke yellow bore butter as lube in my M/L rifle and fowler bores for well over thirty years, also use it for lubing my patches and over time the coating from the patches and from the fiber cushion wads in my smooth bores combined with the heat generated by the firing process has acted to season the bores, my BP guns have also not seen any water for the same number of years, all I use to clean the BP fouling and residue from my M/L's is T/C 13 or the Ox Yoke brand of the same stuff.
So yes, Muzzle Loading gun bores can be seasoned if using the right stuff.

 

[ML48]

I think "Seasoning" the bore may have come from the old days when barrels were made from Iron and not Steel. But it still makes me wonder.... They make PTFE (Teflon) additives for your engine. The idea being that it will permeat the steel and reduce friction. I haven't seen any documentation that it actually works but it's a great theory.

The last time I checked, most steel likes petroleum.

I agree about the PTFE. I remember a product that they put in a vehicle and then drained the oil out of the engine and drove it for miles and claimed no damage to the bearings.
We rebuilt a chevy 6 cyl. for an old 1959 Apache truck. New bearings, pistons, rings, crank, camshaft, etc. ...you get the picture. When done, installed oil, coolant, etc., then poured in the so-called additive. We had the engine set up to run outside the truck. Cranked it up ran it at 1500-2000 rpm, varying to break in the cam, for several hours. Did this for several days in a row. Then pulled it out of the shop and drove it home less than 10 miles. About half way home the fuel pump malfunctioned and dumped fuel into the engine. That manure additive did absolutely nothing to prevent bearing damage...wiped them right out....back to start all over. Now I know fuel in oil will take out lubricity, however, that additive was supposed to coat and protect immediately.....was a fraud product...no longer being sold.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Way up in the thread is a picture of a barrel with a bung in the bung hole. At first I thought it to be the comment on the topic.
I've not shot as much black powder as some, but have done diligent research and can see where some the information above is misinformation itself.
As for France and inches, didn't they use an inch system before metric was adopted? Mauser rifles were built using an inch system even though bullet size was stated in mm. Research it using authoritative sources.

 

[Jakeytoo]

Not for nothing, but, most reenactors, traditional campers, and many backpackers love their "Cool Handle" steel frying pans because of their light weight, good cooking properties, and because they can be seasoned almost as well as their cast iron counterparts.
So, if steel pans can be seasoned, why not steel rifle and smoothbores bores as well, I've been using T/C / Ox Yoke yellow bore butter as lube in my M/L rifle and fowler bores for well over thirty years, also use it for lubing my patches and over time the coating from the patches and from the fiber cushion wads in my smooth bores combined with the heat generated by the firing process has acted to season the bores, my BP guns have also not seen any water for the same number of years, all I use to clean the BP fouling and residue from my M/L's is T/C 13 or the Ox Yoke brand of the same stuff.
So yes, Muzzle Loading gun bores can be seasoned if using the right stuff.

Cookware is seasoned to make it nonstick and so as not to impart the taste of iron or steel into your food. If you’re gonna cook eggs or steak in your ML, then by all means season.

 

[BP Addict]

You may well be called a BPaddict but like a heroin addict you may be unaware of the harmful element in the substance you are addicted too.

Any oil out of the ground will not absorb the various salts produce on combustion of black powder, especially wd40 and any other similar based product.
It is not historically correct too.
Nor is an air compressor!

Makes me laugh. Y'all like dressing in period type dress when shooting your smoke poles but tell me please, is that how you walk in Walmart to get a part for the compressor or a new can of wd40?

You don't have to be a PURIST to enjoy the sport. In Muzzle Loading there are Re-enactors, Shooters, Hunters and some that do a little of everything. It's all in how far you want to take it. Do you know how many times the “Stitch Counters” have run off Newbies, then lament the tragedy of our dwindling numbers? More than you want to count!

Outdoor Writer Rick Hacker, in his book, “The Muzzle Loading Hunter” explains that he could use a Flintlock Rifle and Patched Round Ball on his EXPENSIVE Hunting Trips. However, his purpose is to take down the animal the quickest, most reliable and powerful method, regardless of weather. That would be a Big Bore, Percussion rifle shooting a Solid Lead Conical. Historically, correct? No. Effective, yes!

I recently read Walter Cline’s “The Muzzle Loading Rifle, Now and Then”. When he and his friends formed the Muzzle Loading Rifle Association, they weren’t all using Flintlocks. They were shooting heavy barreled Cap-lock rifles with paper patched elongated bullets and false muzzles referred to in Ned Roberts book “The Cap Lock Muzzle Loading Rifle”. The rifles he references were shot from somewhere in the 1840s on. It was all about precision and accuracy. They used a tool to put powder in their nipple before putting on the cap, similar to the spring-loaded tube many use today to prime the pan on a Flintlock. After primers came along, they invented a device similar to the “Tap and Go Fusil” (Sam Fadala’s Black Powder Handbook) from the 1970s so they could take advantage of that technology.

Based on that, the going back to the older days and living the older ways, may have been a by-product of the formed Association.

Let me ask you this, if you needed a Blood Transfusion at a Rendezvous, are you going to refuse it because it’s not historically, correct? While there are a few using Great-Great Grandpa’s original rifle, most of us shoot modern Muzzle Loaders made from modern materials, on modern equipment. Why not take advantage of modern gun care products and methods?

I've always used Bore Butter as a Patch Lube and preservative since it's invention until I took one of my guns in to sell on consignment and was told there was rust in the bore. That's when I switched to WD40 as final internal and external wipe down.

I can’t think of any Dedicated Enthusiast on this side of “the Pond” that would leave his gun uncleaned for a week. Products like Jim Shockey’s Gold and Hodgdon’s Triple 7 are purported to be clean burning allowing the Hunter to stay the maintenance of his rifle for an extended period of time. Although our Modern Percussion caps are supposed to be non-corrosive, if you don’t clean the top of the barrel, the next time you take your gun out, the finish will be eaten and pitted. Ask me how I know. If you have to clean the outside, you might as well do the inside at the same time.

Water, neutralizes black powder residue including salts. That’s probably why it’s the main ingredient in the majority of Commercial and Homemade Black Powder Solvents. Wiping in between shots is the only way of keeping the fouling down, that I know of.

And yes, if I’m on my way back from an event dressed in Buckskins and I need something from Walmart, that’s what they see!

 

[Grenadier1758]

I've said it before. You want that layer of burnt oils and food particles to build up on the surface of your cooking utensils for a non stick surface. You don't want a build up of burnt grease and powder fouling to build up in the grooves of your rifle thinking that is seasoning the bore.

In the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th century the only oils available were natural oils. Shooters had no choice in the selection.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Shot every day since Saturday. Not been cleaned. Natural lube.

 

[TFoley]

Come on! Let's keep this simple! We're not in France, England, Germany, or any other Country.
If a newbie to Muzzleloading or even modern shooting, they're just going to run and think it is to complicated to get in the shooting sport. Let's stick to what we do here in the USA! My God, we're talking about powder loads and projectiles. There's an old saying: "kiss"....

I heard ya the first time.

 

[Jakeytoo]

I agree about the PTFE. I remember a product that they put in a vehicle and then drained the oil out of the engine and drove it for miles and claimed no damage to the bearings.
We rebuilt a chevy 6 cyl. for an old 1959 Apache truck. New bearings, pistons, rings, crank, camshaft, etc. ...you get the picture. When done, installed oil, coolant, etc., then poured in the so-called additive. We had the engine set up to run outside the truck. Cranked it up ran it at 1500-2000 rpm, varying to break in the cam, for several hours. Did this for several days in a row. Then pulled it out of the shop and drove it home less than 10 miles. About half way home the fuel pump malfunctioned and dumped fuel into the engine. That manure additive did absolutely nothing to prevent bearing damage...wiped them right out....back to start all over. Now I know fuel in oil will take out lubricity, however, that additive was supposed to coat and protect immediately.....was a fraud product...no longer being sold.

I remember Slick 50 making that claim. You can still buy it, I like the spray lube, never used the other stuff.

 

[BP Addict]

I've said it before. You want that layer of burnt oils and food particles to build up on the surface of your cooking utensils for a non stick surface. You don't want a build up of burnt grease and powder fouling to build up in the grooves of your rifle thinking that is seasoning the bore.

In the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th century the only oils available were natural oils. Shooters had no choice in the selection.

Shot every day since Saturday. Not been cleaned. Natural lube.
View attachment 84741

Petroleum Products ARE Natural. They come from Crude Oil pumped from the ground! We didn't put it there. Mother Nature did! "And that's all I have to say about that" Forrest Gump

 

[ML48]

I

I remember Slick 50 making that claim. You can still buy it, I like the spray lube, never used the other stuff.

just remembered the name of that manure. "PROLONG". Pure garbage.

 

[Flinter 2]

Cookware is seasoned to make it nonstick and so as not to impart the taste of iron or steel into your food. If you’re gonna cook eggs or steak in your ML, then by all means season.

See what I mean about spreading untruths by people who think they know it all, the real reason cast Iron cookware is seasoned is to close the open pores in the metal to keep bacteria from growing in the pores and contaminating the food, it has absolutely nothing to do with making it non stick, but it is a side benefit of seasoning.
The only food that will take on a metal taste from Cast Iron or aluminum are foods that contain an acidic base such a citric or Tomatoes, cookware made of carbon steel or stainless will not affect the taste of any food cooked in them, Aluminum that has been subjected to the anodizing process will also not affect food taste, anodizing is not a coating, it a chemical/electrical process that changes the chemical properties of aluminum and hardens the metal at the same time.
Anodizing also has a side benefit of being sort of non stick and is usually easier to clean.
I wasn't looking for an argument, just clearing the air.

 

[ML48]

Petroleum Products ARE Natural. They come from Crude Oil pumped from the ground! We didn't put it there. Mother Nature did! "And that's all I have to say about that" Forrest Gump

Very True and to the point.

 

[Flinter 2]

Petroleum Products ARE Natural. They come from Crude Oil pumped from the ground! We didn't put it there. Mother Nature did! "And that's all I have to say about that" Forrest Gump

It may be natural in that way, but it's still petroleum, and BP doesn't mix well with BP fouling, it induces rust, so if you want to Keep It Simple for newbies by feeding them bad information it's on you, I'd rather be honest and give them a hand to understand.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Petroleum Products ARE Natural. They come from Crude Oil pumped from the ground! We didn't put it there. Mother Nature did! "And that's all I have to say about that" Forrest Gump

Just a play on the word natural I used. The context though is that crude oil or refined will not hold salt in suspension as an animal or vegetable fat will.
Show me what your gun would look like after a few days shooting with no cleaning and lubed with an oil product pumped out the ground.
It would soon stop working.
Bear in mind I don't swab, I don't drag a compressor around and I don't carry an alcohol bottle around because err, oh yes I don't need to because I noted what the old timers used. You know those old wives tales things that worked back then and wow still do today, who'd of thunk.....

 

[Flinter 2]

I've said it before. You want that layer of burnt oils and food particles to build up on the surface of your cooking utensils for a non stick surface. You don't want a build up of burnt grease and powder fouling to build up in the grooves of your rifle thinking that is seasoning the bore.

In the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th century the only oils available were natural oils. Shooters had no choice in the selection.

Good point my friend, back in the day those mountain men, longhunters, explorers, and militia men didn't have the benefit of modern technologies and the businesses that create new products that appeal to the masses and produce allot of profit for the bottom line, but those designers in many cases have never touched the products they are meant to be used on.
But those early adventurers with only animal tallow and urine to clean and lube their guns managed to preserve them from the harsh elements that they lived in for months at a time , yet we have muzzle loading shooters today that buy all these new solvents, oils, and coatings that continue to complain about rusting issues.
It seems to me that most of us here who enjoy living history, take the time to study the history of those times and enjoy our period weapons wouldn't be so quick to discount those things that those hardy souls have to teach us.
Just something to ponder.

While I am new here and certainly don't want to get off on the wrong foot, I'm under the impression that we are all here to learn to teach, and to share ideas and opinions, one can't do either if their mind is closed to anything but their opinions alone.

 

[Flinter 2]

Just a play on the word natural I used. The context though is that crude oil or refined will not hold salt in suspension as an animal or vegetable fat will.
Show me what your gun would look like after a few days shooting with no cleaning and lubed with an oil product pumped out the ground.
It would soon stop working.
Bear in mind I don't swab, I don't drag a compressor around and I don't carry an alcohol bottle around because err, oh yes I don't need to because I noted what the old timers used. You know those old wives tales things that worked back then and wow still do today, who'd of thunk.....

I've shot my custom long rifles Rifles and smoothbore fowlers all day long at woods walks and line shoots and let them set for a few days until I had the time to clean them, all I use to clean mine are T/C 13 solvent (usually three patches and one to dry, then I lube them with a patch saturated with T/C yellow bore butter, I usually take the lock out and clean that in the same way, and that's it, I live in a high humidity climate in southern New England not far from the ocean, I've been caring for my BP guns that way for more than three decades and they are still rust free, maybe I'm just lucky.

 

[Jakeytoo]

See what I mean about spreading untruths by people who think they know it all, the real reason cast Iron cookware is seasoned is to close the open pores in the metal to keep bacteria from growing in the pores and contaminating the food, it has absolutely nothing to do with making it non stick, but it is a side benefit of seasoning.
The only food that will take on a metal taste from Cast Iron or aluminum are foods that contain an acidic base such a citric or Tomatoes,

Been around for a long time (69 years), I have eaten foods cooked in unseasoned cast iron, it does make food taste metallic. Iron skillets are seasoned not just to seal the pores but to make them not stick too. We always used two skillets, one for meat, the other for potatoes. Cook potatoes in the meat skillet, they stick and vice versa.

I don’t claim to know it all, just relaying real world experience.