Advice for a new builder

[elee]

OK....I have been considering building a flint longrifle for about thirty years (honestly), and I think I am about ready to actually do it. I am looking at a classic longrifle ala Dickert or Haines in .36 or .40 caliber, light, fancy, as fine as I can possibly make it. I would like to hear from you all about what suppliers provide the best materials. I am inclined to go with TOTW, as they seem to offer the most in terms of component selection. Any other suppliers that can be highly recommended? I am concerned about wood quality. Would you go with a pre-carved TOTW stock? Or should I go with an uncut blank? I believe I have the ability to do the work require on an uncut blank IF it will really make a difference in the availability of a truly excellent piece of maple. Anyone here ever bought an M4 grade pre-inlet blank from TOTW? How was the curl? Do pre-inlet blanks leave enough room for raised carving? While (I think) I have the ability to fully inlet a rough cut blank, the effort savings offered by pre-inlet stocks is hard to resist. Is the Chamber's Siler lock the best out there? Colerain barrel? If I spend all this time building it..I want it to shoot accurately. If you wanted to build the best rifle from the best materials, what would you do? No doubt you experienced builders out there wince in pain from yet another new guy asking for free advice...but it sure helps avoid snafu's if you can share the mistakes and successes you have experienced. Cost is not a concern...if I am going to spend the time, I will spend the $$$ to make the time worthwhile. No doubt MANY more questions will arise as this project progresses...I hope I can count on this forum to assist when things go south on me (no offense to our confederate brethren). I was blown away by rootnuke's pics of his GORGEOUS rifle, and I think I can complete the project to his elevated standards! I look forward to hearing all your thoughts.
ELee

 

I guess I'll go first, Elee. My first true rifle component build was a TOTW Jaeger with a Davis lock, triggers and hardware, Colerain barrel and pre carved stock. There's tons of wood for any carving you care to do as relief carving is very shallow in actuality. You could spend a thousand bucks on great components but know that a fine rifle requires time, patience, tools and the experience to use them properly, reference materials including how to books, patience, help from this forum and finally some more patience. I learned hard lessons along the way but I'm glad I did it. Good luck to you, sir. Be not afraid.

 

[rich pierce]

Jeagermeister gave good advice. I suggest you not build your fine and fancy rifle as your first product. You say you have time and money- so go ahead and build a simpler gun that just needs good lines and no carving, engraving, etc. A Colonial fowler, a musket, a fusil, a trade gun, or a so-called "barn gun", "poor boy" etc is recommended for the first steps. I would recommend a kit gun for the first gun. Then I would take time to really research what you want and assemble your own parts.

If you build a "Dickert" or an "Isaac Haines" from a kit supplier, to a large extent it will look like 300 others of the same origin. Same drop of the stock, length of wrist, comb length, a dozen other measurements, all the same. To me, that's like, "Oh, I see you have an 870 Wingmaster there".

Same buttplate determines same buttstock architecture. Same barrel and lock choices make the same width at the lock panels, wrist, and forearm. Same furniture, etc. You get my drift. All you are changing is the frills.

That's just my perspective- I like scratch building the best and once started down that road, kits seem very limiting.

 

[Doc Arroyo]

I want it to shoot accurately

A quality barrel will put the ball in the same hole nearly every time. What you mean is "I want to shoot it accurately." That means the rifle has to fit you. A pre-carve is a straight stock with a bit of adjustment for length of pull (LOP).

A big block of wood will allow for adjustments in cast off (or cast on), LOP, height of comb, drop in the heel or a whole bunch of other measurements that will help you shoot your rifle more accurately!

 

[elee]

Ahhhh yes...a very solid point Doc Arroyo! From this point then derives the next question....what are the best means of measuring the shooter (myself) for LOP, cast off, and drop? I am well equipped, but I am not Purdey's, so a try stock is not available. There must be a standardized method of arriving at these measurements other than first building a fully adjustable try stock?
Thanks
ELee

 

[merdean]

I would suggest you start with getting all the parts to fit and the gun to fit you. I have built 6 from kits and decided I was ready to scratch build one. Well, the stock is too short because I cut it to length without the curve for the butplate. The wrist is too thick. The forearm is lopsided. It looks like a club! I don't show it to anyone! But it started with a quality barrel and it shoots straight! .45cal. My next one was a little better .50cal, but it took til the 3rd to make one I was proud of. .54cal. The 4th is going to my daughter. .36cal. (Don't tell her, she thinks it is for my wife). Now I finally feel that I am ready to build a 5th from scratch. (It will be for my wife--no, she thinks it is for my son.) This will be a .40, with all the pretties I can figure how to put on it.
The point is, don't plan on the pretties on your first try. Just make a rifle that fits you and all the parts fit the rifle. Use it at a learning experinece. Try a good chuck of wood so that, if you get lucky, you have something to show off. Then you have a good excuse to build another. Good luck and keep those carving knives sharp! :imo:

 

[BLAHMAN]

Ahhhh yes...a very solid point Doc Arroyo! From this point then derives the next question....what are the best means of measuring the shooter (myself) for LOP, cast off, and drop? I am well equipped, but I am not Purdey's, so a try stock is not available. There must be a standardized method of arriving at these measurements other than first building a fully adjustable try stock?
Thanks
ELee

Well, let's see. Rich made an excellent point, that is: start simple. Make a simple gun first. Architecture is the key ingredient in making a rifle.

Make a 'barn gun' a 'poor boy', or something like that. LOP is one thing, so is drop, so is cast-off, how long should the comb be, how does one blend the lock panels....all that stuff (and more) needs to be dealt with before you start carving and decorating.

My advice: start with a plain chunk of wood, a precarved is a good place to begin, and make a simple gun, then make another, then another...each one's a learning tool to something better. :m2c:

 

[rootnuke]

OK....I have been considering building a flint longrifle for about thirty years (honestly), and I think I am about ready to actually do it. I am looking at a classic longrifle ala Dickert or Haines in .36 or .40 caliber, light, fancy, as fine as I can possibly make it. I would like to hear from you all about what suppliers provide the best materials. I am inclined to go with TOTW, as they seem to offer the most in terms of component selection. Any other suppliers that can be highly recommended?
TOW if they have the parts in stock, never back order
MBS ]http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.comhttp://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com[/color
I am concerned about wood quality. Would you go with a pre-carved TOTW stock?
I got mine from TOW, however I am working on a Lehigh/Allentown parts list and will probably go with http://www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com. I just have a problem with some warehouse guy picking out my stock.
Or should I go with an uncut blank? Not on the 1st build.
I believe I have the ability to do the work require on an uncut blank IF it will really make a difference in the availability of a truly excellent piece of maple. Anyone here ever bought an M4 grade pre-inlet blank from TOTW? I did.
How was the curl? I think it could of been better.
Do pre-inlet blanks leave enough room for raised carving? Yes, in fact if the carving was as thick as the stock you could poke your eye out it would be so tall.
While (I think) I have the ability to fully inlet a rough cut blank, the effort savings offered by pre-inlet stocks is hard to resist. Yes it is.
Is the Chamber's Siler lock the best out there? I think so but I have only seen one. :/
Colerain barrel? ditto
If I spend all this time building it..I want it to shoot accurately. If you wanted to build the best rifle from the best materials, what would you do? Your do'in it.
No doubt you experienced builders out there wince in pain from yet another new guy asking for free advice...
What! FREE, I thought we were charging.
...but it sure helps avoid snafu's if you can share the mistakes and successes you have experienced. Cost is not a concern...if I am going to spend the time, I will spend the $$$ to make the time worthwhile. No doubt MANY more questions will arise as this project progresses...I hope I can count on this forum to assist when things go south on me (no offense to our confederate brethren). I was blown away by rootnuke's pics of his GORGEOUS rifle,
and I think I can complete the project to his elevated standards! Thanks for the compliment. I learned everything I know about gun building from the guys on this forum, they have forgotten more than I will ever know about building,:redthumb:
I look forward to hearing all your thoughts.
ELee

 

[Trina]

I just finished my first rifle an Issac Haines from TOW, so I dont have alot of experience, but I would add, go slow and enjoy each process, dont work on it when your mad or tired...and have fun :: and if you get stuck, come here and read and ask questions... these guys are an wonderful resource :winking:
The one I just finished is very plain, but it has beautiful lines even without all the carving and so on. The next one I will add a bit in the line of decorations. Whichever way you go good luck and enjoy it :m2c:

 

[BLAHMAN]

One more thing: spend the the money to pick up an instruction manual like The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle or Recreating the American Longrifle both can be found at TOTW. It's worth the money and excellent reference. :thumbsup:

 

[berryfarmer]

Don't be afraid to stretch yourself skill-wise if you feel capable of carving from a blank you may have the skill to "jumpin" and do a fancy rifle straight off. I carved a few stocks from pine and birch before cutting into fancy wood have bought TOW and dunlap wood I would give the edge to dunlap but a "plain" beck 44" blank turned out to be fantastic - just my view.......

ps-swamped barrels are worth every penny you WILL regret not using one if you go with a straight pole....

 

After seeing the quality of work you did on that horn, you are more than ready to do a build. You'll get plenty of advice, probably more than you will want. Check out rootnuke's build, and follow his advice. The most important thing is to take your time. You'll do great. Bill

 

[Herb]

If you think you can build a rifle, you can build a try-gun. Pick out a rifle style you like and draw a full scale buttstock on cardboard for a pattern. Draw a straight line for the top of the barrel and then trace it on a pine board and cut the stock out. Or if you have a nice photo, you can enlarge that to full size at some copy place. Use the lock as a known dimension (use Track's full size photos) and then algebraicaly calculate your enlargement factor. Say the lock is 2" in the photo but is 6" life size, you enlarge the photo 300 percent. You may have to do it in stages, that is enlarge to the limit of the copier, say 200%, then enlarge that photo 50%. Get the copy people to do it for you. Then you can measure from the top barrel line drop at heel, and length of pull of that rifle, pick out the butt plate from Track's photos. Then draw that on a pine board and saw it out. Make a separate piece for the barrel with it hinged or C-clamped together about by the lock so you can vary the drop at heel. Put a nail in at the trigger length and see if it feels right. Build in 1/4 to 3/8" castoff if you can, don't even consider not doing it. You can get some out of precarved stocks by setting the buttplate as far to the side as it will go and thinning the cheek piece. You can also file off the side of the buttplate if it is a big one. You'll probably find a pull of about 13 1/2" is comfortable and 3 1/4 to 3 3/4" drop at heel. You can accomodate to most guns, but one that fits is a joy to use. I'd recommend starting with a precarved stock. Pecatonica River also has good ones.

 

[mikee51848]

One more thing: spend the the money to pick up an instruction manual like The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle

When I opened the box for my kit, I have to admit I was overwhelmed. I did get that book though, and Chuck Dixon is encouraging. I am fortunate that I live an hour from his shop. I haven't started the gun yet but am determined to take it slow and do the best I can. I guess my biggest concern will be drilling the touch hole when the time comes.
:relax:

 

[loophole]

I've seen a few first guns which are far better than anything I can do after 30 years, but most of us have to build a few to get things right--as others have said, start with a plain rifle. A fullstock hawken is an excellent choice. The biggest problem most of us have is seeing three demensions from photos--all longrifles are three demensional, and lancasters more so than many others. All the lines in a lancaster stock converge at a common point, something which doesn't show up in photos and drawings. You will never get the proper shape till you study several rifles that are built properly. If you can't do that, a really good precarved stock probably is best, although there are lines and curves, particularly around the lock and in the wrist and front of the comb, which the spindle duplicator usually misses. There is 10 or 20 per cent too much wood left on some precarved stocks, and this is great if you want to shape the thing to your taste, but results in a clubby rifle if you don't take off most of the excess. Good luck.

 

Elee, you might check out this kit on[url] gunbroker.com[/url] Fullstock Hawken Flintlock Kit It would be an excellent starter build Bill

 

[shmrck1]

elee,
if you don't learn anything else from these
post i hope you will take Jaegermeister's advise
about "patience" it will be your key to a successful
project. you apparently have the tools and talent,
now just take your time.
snake-eyes :m2c: :imo: :thumbsup: eace:

 

[Birddog6]

30 years waiting ? Good Lord Man ...... Jump In!! the water is FINE !! First thing you need to do is find a style of rifle that fits you well. Try the Lancasters, Hawkens, Bedfords, TN rifles, VA rifles, Jaegers, ALL that you can find. If you can go to a ML shop like Tip Curtis Frontier Shop & shoulder about 40 dif ones, that will help Tremendously.
At this point forget about what you physically Like, concentrate of what you can build that you can comfortably shoot. Then buy the parts to build it & do so, and shoot it & go on to the next rifle. After you have built several then you can try one from scratch with the special LOP & drop at the heel, cast in or out & etc.

If you order the parts from Dunlaps, you can get it 95% inlet or you can have only the stock shaped & the barrel inlet & RR hole drilled, buttplate left uncut, lock inlet uncut, trigger uncut etc. Wayne will do the stock just about any way you want it. This is a good option for guys that want to move the barrel back a tad or do their own inletting of the lock & etc.

All of the precarved stocks I have seen have more than enough wood for the carvings.

As far as locks go, IMHO the Jim Chambers locks are definately Top Dog in the lock business.

Triggers I would go with R.E.Davis. I have used lots of them & never had a single problem with Any of them.

Barrels is a tossup. ALL of the major brand barrels will shoot straighter than 99% of the guys holding them. I usually use Colerain because of availability, price & am confident in the quality of them. But I have used Colerain, Rice, Getz, Green Mtn., Goodoien, and Orion & have only had one problem with one .36 cal. barrel one time..... so I have had exceptional quality from all of the above barrel makers. Barrel Manufacturers quality ? Rice is Top Dog inside & outside in the barrel making of swamped barrels, Goodoien on the match straight barrels, Orion on the standard grade straight barrels, of what I have personally used.

As for the quality of the wood, I suggest going with a good grade & not the standard grade. I never hear anyone griping about TOO Nice of wood....... I hear lots of people say they wish they would have used a bettter grade. So I would start with a grade 5 or 6 and have some nice stripes in the stock. And this will also keep the attention on the stripes & not on the small imperfections you may incurr.

Take your time & don't get in a hurry. If it takes 3 mo, 5 mo, 8 mo, really makes no dif. There are parts of this building process that must be correct, so be patient with it. If you don't feel well, or are upset or just not in a good mood, leave it alone ! Some things you cannot back up on or repair....... Do NOT clock yourself or keep track of the time involved in the rifle. it takes what it takes & it will be done when it is done......

I suggest the builders book Gunsmiths of Grenville County. It is a good book, very good explanations & etc. Get the wire bound one so it will lay out flat. The book is WELL worth the money. If you follow the book & ask question here, there is no doubt in my mind you can build a rifle.

And last of all, the I. Haines in a .50 cal would be the lightest. I finished one recently that weighed 7.5# and another one with a lil denser stock & it was 8#, both having a B38 swamped .50 cal barrel. I suggest going with a plain beautifully striped stock on the first one. You can carve up the next one or come back some day & carve this one, but you cannot add natural stripes to it.

A beautifully striped clean built rifle is a beautifl rifle.

A beautifully striped rifle that is poorly carved, is a poorly carved rifle.........

Learn to build the rifle first & go from there.....

Good Luck !

:m2c: