Advertised case hardening on BP revolvers

[Nav]

There are no molecules in steel. It is a crystal structure.

No molecules no mat(t)er.

 

[LRB]

Both molecules and crystals are matter, but crystals are a solid substance having a natural geometrically regular form with symmetrically arranged plane faces, whereas a molecule is formed from a group of atoms bonded together.

 

[Bad Karma]

My uncle used a few pieces of pipe with a bazillion 1/16” holes drilled in them hooked to a hose then hooked to a small compressor with some sort of home made mitigator / regulator for the amount of air bubbles. and he would use wire to hold and separate the parts in the steel box. He is long since past away but he was one smart guy when it came to all kinds of things, like I was saying in my last post I was a teenager then and I really wished I would have paid more attention to some of the things he used to build instead of chasing girls. Kids OH Well…

Well I guess we all feel like that at times. But then again the memories of the girls we caught…

 

[NCpistolero]

Both molecules and crystals are matter, but crystals are a solid substance having a natural geometrically regular form with symmetrically arranged plane faces, whereas a molecule is formed from a group of atoms bonded together.

I can assure you, the "crystals" are certainly made of molecules, which are made of atoms. "Crystals" are no more "solid" than the molecules they are made of, and the atoms which make up those molecules are no more dense or "solid" whether they are in a crystal or not.

 

[Nav]

Lol. I’ll argue about all sorts of minutia, but I draw the line at molecular science!

I was just going to leave that lay.

 

[LRB]

Metallic bond contradicts the very idea of molecules (it is hard to form covalent bonds when you are immersed in a sea of electrons). Gallium with its "almost molecules" is likely the best we can get. Also, you might want to think of large metal clusters. And then there is steel (which contains carbon, which is not a metal on its own) and other alloys containing some non-metallic elements. The major component of steel is iron, a metal that in its pure state is not much harder than copper. Omitting very extreme cases, iron in its solid state is, like all other metals, polycrystalline—that is, it consists of many crystals that join one another on their boundaries.
A crystal is always a solid.
A molecule is a structure with a beginning and end, no repeatability* and a certain degree of flexibility (more or less flexibility depending on the physical state). [*There can be repeated fragments, for example any protein repeats the 20 basic amino acids many times along with other optional stuff… but the repeatability never reaches the level of a crystal, not even in polymers formed by a single “building block”.]

A crystal contains a “basic structure” called a crystal cell which repeats itself over and over in 3D.
The immense majority of the properties of the crystal don’t change with its size - the properties of, for example, a string of identical amino acids, are very different when it’s 10 atoms long or when it’s 1000. Adding a handful of atoms at the end of an actual protein can change its behavior completely.

If a crystal contains molecules, the atoms in molecule A will be bound more strongly to the rest of the atoms in molecule A than to the atoms in molecule B. When you take an Xray picture of a sugar crystal and process it (the original picture looks like a very badly-done piece of Op Art), you get the positions of the atoms in the crystal’s cell, and you actually see sugar molecules, with distances between atoms very similar to the distances they have when the sugar is dissolved in water.

 

[LRB]

I can assure you, the "crystals" are certainly made of molecules, which are made of atoms. "Crystals" are no more "solid" than the molecules they are made of, and the atoms which make up those molecules are no more dense or "solid" whether they are in a crystal or not.

WRONG!

• 17 minutes ago

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• #106

Metallic bond contradicts the very idea of molecules (it is hard to form covalent bonds when you are immersed in a sea of electrons). Gallium with its "almost molecules" is likely the best we can get. Also, you might want to think of large metal clusters. And then there is steel (which contains carbon, which is not a metal on its own) and other alloys containing some non-metallic elements. The major component of steel is iron, a metal that in its pure state is not much harder than copper. Omitting very extreme cases, iron in its solid state is, like all other metals, polycrystalline—that is, it consists of many crystals that join one another on their boundaries.
A crystal is always a solid.
A molecule is a structure with a beginning and end, no repeatability* and a certain degree of flexibility (more or less flexibility depending on the physical state). [*There can be repeated fragments, for example any protein repeats the 20 basic amino acids many times along with other optional stuff… but the repeatability never reaches the level of a crystal, not even in polymers formed by a single “building block”.]

A crystal contains a “basic structure” called a crystal cell which repeats itself over and over in 3D.
The immense majority of the properties of the crystal don’t change with its size - the properties of, for example, a string of identical amino acids, are very different when it’s 10 atoms long or when it’s 1000. Adding a handful of atoms at the end of an actual protein can change its behavior completely.

If a crystal contains molecules, the atoms in molecule A will be bound more strongly to the rest of the atoms in molecule A than to the atoms in molecule B. When you take an Xray picture of a sugar crystal and process it (the original picture looks like a very badly-done piece of Op Art), you get the positions of the atoms in the crystal’s cell, and you actually see sugar molecules, with distances between atoms very similar to the distances they have when the sugar is dissolved in water.

 

[Whitworth]

WRONG!

• 17 minutes ago
• Add bookmark
• #106

Metallic bond contradicts the very idea of molecules (it is hard to form covalent bonds when you are immersed in a sea of electrons). Gallium with its "almost molecules" is likely the best we can get. Also, you might want to think of large metal clusters. And then there is steel (which contains carbon, which is not a metal on its own) and other alloys containing some non-metallic elements. The major component of steel is iron, a metal that in its pure state is not much harder than copper. Omitting very extreme cases, iron in its solid state is, like all other metals, polycrystalline—that is, it consists of many crystals that join one another on their boundaries.
A crystal is always a solid.
A molecule is a structure with a beginning and end, no repeatability* and a certain degree of flexibility (more or less flexibility depending on the physical state). [*There can be repeated fragments, for example any protein repeats the 20 basic amino acids many times along with other optional stuff… but the repeatability never reaches the level of a crystal, not even in polymers formed by a single “building block”.]

A crystal contains a “basic structure” called a crystal cell which repeats itself over and over in 3D.
The immense majority of the properties of the crystal don’t change with its size - the properties of, for example, a string of identical amino acids, are very different when it’s 10 atoms long or when it’s 1000. Adding a handful of atoms at the end of an actual protein can change its behavior completely.

If a crystal contains molecules, the atoms in molecule A will be bound more strongly to the rest of the atoms in molecule A than to the atoms in molecule B. When you take an Xray picture of a sugar crystal and process it (the original picture looks like a very badly-done piece of Op Art), you get the positions of the atoms in the crystal’s cell, and you actually see sugar molecules, with distances between atoms very similar to the distances they have when the sugar is dissolved in water.

Sounds like you don't trust atoms because they make up everything...

 

[LRB]

Sounds like you don't trust atoms because they make up everything...

Would you like to clarify that statement? It makes no sense.

 

[Nav]

All matter is made of atoms. It’s not even worth arguing about it. Read.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal”The scientific definition of a "crystal" is based on the microscopic arrangement of atoms inside it, called the crystal structure. A crystal is a solid where the atoms form a periodic arrangement. (Quasicrystals are an exception, see below).”

This is not the hill to die on.

 

[GYJ]

Unless I'm mistaken, the point LRB is making is that an alloy like steel is just a mixture of elemental atoms, in this case iron and carbon. They are not bonded at the atomic level to form new molecules.

 

[TFoley]

Yes, I know it's not a m/l, but it's soooooooooooooooo pretty - bone case-hardening by a master in Canada....

Compared with my Uberti......

 

[Whitworth]

Would you like to clarify that statement? It makes no sense.

It's joke, you know like atoms telling a lie.

 

[LRB]

It's joke, you know like atoms telling a lie.

Hah. Went right over my old gray head but I get it now. Not bad actually.

 

[springfield art]

I have a machinist manual printed in 1935 where they used ground bones to case harden metals. I can’t be certain but I would think exposing the hot metal to oxygen imparts the color.

At the price levels of modern BP guns, I can't think mass producers are using the ground-bone old-time methods; that would be for high-end custom work.

 

[Whitworth]

Hah. Went right over my old gray head but I get it now. Not bad actually.

Have to be honest, I can't claim it, have it on a sweatshirt

 

[M. De Land]

Yes, I know it's not a m/l, but it's soooooooooooooooo pretty - bone case-hardening by a master in Canada....

View attachment 254004

Compared with my Uberti......

View attachment 254005

This case job looks to me like it was very evedently shielded which holds the charcoal to the work longer as it drops through the quench water. Note the very defined perimeter boarder of the pattern. Nice work. probably the heat was in the mid 1300's F which gives the most vivid color .

 

[LRB]

Yes, I know it's not a m/l, but it's soooooooooooooooo pretty - bone case-hardening by a master in Canada....

View attachment 254004

Compared with my Uberti......

View attachment 254005

The Uberti would beat the Canadian if the colors were more vivid. The Canadian, to me, looks like acid was spilled on a blued gun. The little black spots tell me the master is no master. BUT, that's my opinion based on my taste.

 

[rickpa]

Warning : not m/l.....It does look better than my fake coloring done with cold blue. The average person doesn't know though......or care.

 

[Spartan64]

Most "Color Case Hardening" on modern guns is simply a bath in cyanide salts to give the metal pretty colors on the surface. All or nearly all modern firearms are made from heat treated steel. There is no mechanical benefit to infusing additional carbon into the surface of the firearm through "real" case hardening.

Antique guns made before the Bessemer Process allowed mass-produced steel were made of iron. The case-hardening process was a method of strengthening the surface of the iron against wear while leaving a softer center to absorb stress. None of the mass-produced Italian guns use bone-charcoal case hardening. Turnbull Restorations and some smaller shops/hobbyists can apply the classic bone charcoal process to modern steel reproductions.