Questions about Original Muzzle loading Shotguns

If you own or have owned an original 1800s muzzle loading shotgun, how well did it pattern at 25-35 yards?
Single barrel or double.
Did it have a cylinder bore?

Thanks for any replies!

Jim

Original muzzle loading shotguns have regulated barrels which put shot from each barrel into a given area ,this proves ok for a unsporting sitting shot ,but for a sporting shot to a driven bird the shot is stringed so a pattern plate does not prove anything.
Feltwad

I've got several. When these were made, choke wasn't "invented" yet. However, there was some attempt to make the pattern a certain consistency by the more renowned makers. So at least one of mine is a smaller diameter at the muzzle than the breach - but it isn't "choke" as modern standards. I would describe it as a tapered internal bore diameter. All of mine are SxS. I've patterned them with different components at 40-yards in order to make a comparison to modern choke constrictions for my own info. I've also patterned them at the most likely range flying targets will be, and the max. range that I'd shoot. The larger gauges guns (11, 12, 13 and 14) are set-up with the components that give a good pattern, but more importantly that I consistently hit flying targets at a longer range than my 24 and 28 gauge guns. I use the 24 and 28 for woodcock and quail (and certain situations on doves) but I use the larger gauges on ducks, geese, cranes, Hungarian partridge, pheasant, sharptail, prairie chicken, wild pigeons and sage grouse (Flying) and turkeys (stationary). A quality gun will pattern very nicely as far as round, evenly disbursed and dense when fired at paper if you use the right components. That requires quite a bit of experimentation. I have a bunch of guns because I keep them for somewhat specific applications. I have one that I shoot 1 1/4 oz of larger shot (#5 or #4) for geese and cranes or turkey and another for 1-oz of shot on upland birds shot over a point. You could figure out a variety of effective loads for one gun to make it more all-purpose if you are just using one or two guns of course.

Sir I have several original English SxS 12ga and they will all shoot a little different and you have to shoot them a lot to figure what works out. I have one that loves 1 1/4 or 11/8 of # 5 lead square loads with 1F powder kills squirrels with either barrel at honest 30 / 35 yards. I have another 12 that has a smaller diameter barrel on the left side for example I use a 16ga cleaning jag with 2 patches to get a snug fit. Right side barrel uses a 12 ga jag with 1 patch. Left barrel is a 20 yard with #5 and a square load. Go to 1 1/8 of # 6 and reduce powder it's a 25-yard gun. I'm still working with right side barrel haven't found what works yet. These guns are all straight cly bore. I have a reproduction CVA 12 SxS that will shoot #5 square load with 2f 25-yard gun. On a side note, have another set of barrels for CVA at gunsmith right now getting Jug choked hopefully a 30-yard Turkey gun???

Sounds good . Pattern it at different ranges and see . If itneefs help start experiment ing with shot cups , modern and homemade . they work great .....best of luck . Lower powder charges too !!!

Rob M. said:

Sounds good . Pattern it at different ranges and see . If itneefs help start experiment ing with shot cups , modern and homemade . they work great .....best of luck . Lower powder charges too !!!

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I would love an old double barrel 20 gauge but probably those chances are slim.

@Feltwad why is the pattern stringed in an original? And if so, How did our ancestors consistently take flying game effectively? Are you saying a modern gun like a pedersoli is different or the same as far as the stringed pattern?

Blackpowderart said:

@Feltwad why is the pattern stringed in an original? And if so, How did our ancestors consistently take flying game effectively? Are you saying a modern gun like a pedersoli is different or the same as far as the stringed pattern?

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Both the same
Feltwad

WALT53 said:

I would love an old double barrel 20 gauge but probably those chances are slim.

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Make one ! Double barrel flintlock would be great !! I know this guy in the Great White North that makes awesome N.W. trade guns !!

Blackpowderart said:

@Feltwad why is the pattern stringed in an original? And if so, How did our ancestors consistently take flying game effectively? Are you saying a modern gun like a pedersoli is different or the same as far as the stringed pattern?

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@Blackpowderart I believe what he meant by stringed is that the shooter is on the move when the shot is taken, thus the pattern is strung out.

@Feltwad Here in the states, when taking a shot at a Turkey's head, one is still as a board. This is one reason a sitting shot pattern is nice to know. There is nothing unsporting about what it takes to bring a Turkey into shotgun range.

WALT53 said:

I would love an old double barrel 20 gauge but probably those chances are slim.

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I have a nice one to part with if you are serious.

Dusty_Traveler said:

@Blackpowderart I believe what he meant by stringed is that the shooter is on the move when the shot is taken, thus the pattern is strung out.

@Feltwad Here in the states, when taking a shot at a Turkey's head, one is still as a board. This is one reason a sitting shot pattern is nice to know. There is nothing unsporting about what it takes to bring a Turkey into shotgun range.

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Shooting game in the UK is total different to that in the States On a driven pheasant or partridge day shooting a sitting bird or shooting ground game plus vermin is strictly forbidding which will result in you forced to leave the shoot this also apples to shooting sitting on a walk up game day for rabbits , hares etc . To be hornist shooting sitting is classed un sporting and not allowed un less you are a pot hunter or a poacher. In the States shooting sitting seems to be the norm for some types of game although there will be shooting flying that take things on the wing that is the difference . No offence
Feltwad

@Feltwad turkey is a 20-30 lb bird that doesn't fly, but walks. They can see you blink 50yds away. They walk slow usually and are
Always scanning , looking for insects, mates and predators(there are lots). One walks around calling trying to locate a turkey then pick a spot, hide and try to call him into shotgun range. Most states you can't use a rifle at all or shot larger that #4. If you move at all, the gig is up, he can run fast and is
Gone. If you hit them in tje body, the feathers so thick like armor, It will not kill them, only ruin the meat. Head shot only. One of the most exciting game to hunt and an experienced hunter can go seasons with no success. Turkey season is usually 30 days a year, give or take a few. Only serious hunters are into turkey hunting. If you didn't do it sitting, itt wouldn't get done. It's a chess game, you are moving and calling and at the moment of truth , right before he comes into sight you gotta be hidden well.

My first turkey, and in most states can only
Shoot a male bird.

Turkey is also wild and not farm raised. Gotta go find em

Feltwad said:

Shooting game in the UK is total different to that in the States On a driven pheasant or partridge day shooting a sitting bird or shooting ground game plus vermin is strictly forbidding which will result in you forced to leave the shoot this also apples to shooting sitting on a walk up game day for rabbits , hares etc . To be hornist shooting sitting is classed un sporting and not allowed un less you are a pot hunter or a poacher. In the States shooting sitting seems to be the norm for some types of game although there will be shooting flying that take things on the wing that is the difference . No offence
FeltwadView attachment 306478

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None taken!

Blackpowderart said:

@Feltwad turkey is a 20-30 lb bird that doesn't fly, but walks. They can see you blink 50yds away. They walk slow usually and are
Always scanning , looking for insects, mates and predators(there are lots). One walks around calling trying to locate a turkey then pick a spot, hide and try to call him into shotgun range. Most states you can't use a rifle at all or shot larger that #4. If you move at all, the gig is up, he can run fast and is
Gone. If you hit them in tje body, the feathers so thick like armor, It will not kill them, only ruin the meat. Head shot only. One of the most exciting game to hunt and an experienced hunter can go seasons with no success. Turkey season is usually 30 days a year, give or take a few. Only serious hunters are into turkey hunting. If you didn't do it sitting, itt wouldn't get done. It's a chess game, you are moving and calling and at the moment of truth , right before he comes into sight you gotta be hidden well.

My first turkey, and in most states can only
Shoot a male bird.

Turkey is also wild and not farm raised. Gotta go find em

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We have dumber turkeys here, probably because of less hunting pressure. Camo isn't necessary for the most part. They will fly a bit, but not far. I watch them go to roost in the trees out by my shop in the evenings. They do tend to get up the mountainside and fly DOWN to the trees, rather than up. During deer season, one of my tactics is to find a flock, and follow them, keeping 30-40 yards between us. They make enough noise and movement to be good cover to get up on deer.

waksupi said:

We have dumber turkeys here, probably because of less hunting pressure. Camo isn't necessary for the most part. They will fly a bit, but not far. I watch them go to roost in the trees out by my shop in the evenings. They do tend to get up the mountainside and fly DOWN to the trees, rather than up. During deer season, one of my tactics is to find a flock, and follow them, keeping 30-40 yards between us. They make enough noise and movement to be good cover to get up on deer.

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Well in tje fall they are flocked up and focused on food. In the spring, it is mating season, so they are coming in, looking for that mate you presented yourself as by calling. Sometimes you can not even move and they see something they don't like and vanish. I'm not saying it's impossible, only that it takes skill and sometimes a little luck. Some people use a blind, I just run and gun, call and sit against a tree when the time is right. It is very interactive with the bird, you Call, he responds and so on....back and forth, all the while building your adrenaline the closer he gets. They do fly up to roost, but you aren't shooting a turkey on the wing and it's illegal to shoot them off the roost.

Blackpowderart said:

Well in tje fall they are flocked up and focused on food. In the spring, it is mating season, so they are coming in, looking for that mate you presented yourself as by calling. Sometimes you can not even move and they see something they don't like and vanish. I'm not saying it's impossible, only that it takes skill and sometimes a little luck. Some people use a blind, I just run and gun, call and sit against a tree when the time is right. It is very interactive with the bird, you Call, he responds and so on....back and forth, all the while building your adrenaline the closer he gets. They do fly up to roost, but you aren't shooting a turkey on the wing and it's illegal to shoot them off the roost.

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You would have a great time hunting turkey here! You can hardly chase a strutting tom away!

smo said:

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Nice love seeing them like that

WALT53 said:

I would love an old double barrel 20 gauge but probably those chances are slim.

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They are out there, I stumbled onto my William Moore 12 bore. I've hunted with it a few times, shot clays a few.
I've used loads up to 70grs ffg., 1 1/4oz shot.