Why not a Kukri

Could be that they didn't want to buy or trade for a knife that was made in India, just like many today turn up their noses at an India made musket

The Gurkhas developed the kukri as an agricultural tool (not too dissimalar from a corn knife or hand sickle), and from constant use it could be a formidable weapon hand to hand. Developed for its region. Same as the Bowie knife, Arkansas toothpick, etc. We developed our own tools for the trade. I always thought they were fascinating, but similar to a Woodsmans Pal "survival machete"...which at one time I had to have, i soon discovered in practice it lacked alot. better than just a sharp stick to survivie with, but better choices.

Teliliad said:

Actually, while you’re right and a wide curved blade is not particularly great for a thrusting attack, the Kukri has design features that lend very well to the concept. True the shape of the blade is not optimal for the action. But the spine of the blade is about 1/4” thick. This makes the blade heavy. Combine that with the sweeping shape of the front of the blade and stabbing in a downward motion, ie at a target laying in the dirt, it will split right through the rib cage. In addition if you stabbed some one in the gut with it, that wide spine would cause a long triangle shaped wound that would be very difficult to suture, especially in the field. And the angles created by the shape and width of the blade make tearing it downward, after said stabbing, causing mortal wounds near impossible to recover from. The Gurkhas used these knives for combat and survival to great effect from their inception to the present day. My details on this story are a bit hazy, but at one point the French invaded Nepal. Somewhere around 5 Gurkhas infiltrated a French encampment and used their Kukris to severe the heads off of every other Frenchman without waking the rest. So half the camp woke up to their numbers brutally and effectively cut in half with such stealth that none of the living were roused from their sleep. The Gurkhas are tough as nails. There was one retired Gurkha on a train. He killed 5 armed men with his bare hands, so imagine what he could do with a Kukri. Point is I agree with you point that the knife isn’t pointy enough, however put that knife in the hands of a Gurkha, all points are null and void.

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Actually the retired Gurkha on the train did have his Kukuri and used it to great effect in taking out the armed bandits.

Teliliad said:

So did a smidgen of digging…just learned that there was a whole nother fur trade with china where north western sea otters were the primary focus. We harvested sea otter pelts up by Washington state, Oregon, and even Alaska. And then we floated them over to china to trade for stuff, which was then floated back to the US and sold. Nepal borders India and china… so it really depends on how friendly those nations were as to the aspect of possibility? Did the fur trade coincide with the construction of the continental railroad at all… just wondering…but the Nepalese didn’t start migrating to the US until the 20th century so that idea is out of the question.

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Interesting information.

Colonial Boy said:

I had two of them back in 1955, I was doing a short stint as a BHQ Orderly room clerk and the Quarter Master came in one day and invited the Orderly room staff to come next door into his domain, we trooped in and there was an open crate of kukris, he invited us to take a couple each as he was returning them for sale through Ordnance.
Seems that the Battalion bought them privately for issue as fighting knives but ‘higher up’ got to hear of it and it was stopped as apparently only the Gurkhas could use them in the British Commonwealth forces.

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When I was in 3RAR in the 70's and later in mid 80's the Kukris were very popular with our Infantry blokes, Aussie soldiers carried them throughout the Malayan Emergency, Indon Confrontasi (Borneo etc) and Vietnam and later because they were a superb Jungle / Bush tool.
I still have my Brit Army Gurkha issue Kukri and keep it Razor sharp.

mushka said:

I have an old kukri, English broad arrow marked with scabbard and the two little skinning knives that slide into a leather strap that goes completely around the scabbard. It looks like it was used a lot in the past. Had it for many years and can't even remember how it came to me. I took it on some camping trips but regular utensils and tools did a better job for me so it is now a good looking wall hanger.

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Actually one of the small knives is a hardened steel sharpening tool, not very efficient but in olden times thats all they had, its more traditional nowadays than actually used as a sharpener.

TFoley said:

Asking why American frontiersmen never used the kukri is like asking why the Mexicans never used a puuko.

Total lack of any form of commercial connection in historical times is a good reason. Come to think of it - how many Americans know a Gurkha?

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But cant you imagine the scenario ?

Gupta Muckerjee..... "Mountain Man" !

Teliliad said:

I’m sure that if it is just a story it was based on some truth. And as I said my details are kind of fuzzy so I might have the conflict and enemy confused. Or I might have been told wrong. I read that a long time ago and can’t verify if my source was correct. The other option is that it was a common tactic that they employed to lay waste to enemy morale. Psychological warfare is tense.when I was in Afghanistan, buildings kept catching fire mysteriously on the base. All of which potentially strategic targets. Most of us assumed that some of the local workers employed there were taliban operatives or something just letting us know that they were there.

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There were verified accounts in WW1 where Gurkhas worked at night and did identify other Soldiers by the feel of the Tunic buttons.
In his book "Goodbye to all That" Robert Graves (a Brit Officer) describes a Gurkha Soldier in rear echelon (rest area) lining up for his daily food ration and asking for "back ups", to which the Cook replied "Bring me some Hun heads and I will". The next morning "Johnny Gurkha" was in the food line holding a hessian back dripping blood, one of the Brit Sergeants ordered the Gurkha to open the bag which he did to reveal 2 or 3 severed German heads.

I served with the Gurkhas for a couple of months in the 70's, believe me most of what you may have heard about them is probably true.

Teliliad said:

Ok. Check this though. In very late 1700s Nepal invaded Tibet, which even then was still part of china. It is therefore possible that a Chinese person acquired a Kukri be it a product of theft or spoils of war or some dude ripped it from a corpse and then passed it down to his son who immigrated to America with it to work on the transcontinental railroad say in 1864… only to be killed by an outlaw who then stole the knife and fled to work in the Rockies as a fur trader to escape the long arm of the law… how’s that for possible, lmfao. Sorry, just had to see how far I could take this.

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I'm disappointed that Big Nose Cate (Doc Holidays girlfriend, and part time "working girl") was left out of this, she traded her favours with the Outlaw Fur Trader for his Kukri so it could be gifted to Doc Holiday. When ol Doc saw the Kukri he was impressed and took to wearing it hung from his neck under his sweat stained Shirt.
Later at the OK Corral Gun fight the Kukri saved his life by deflecting a barrage of bullets slamming into his chest.
Meanwhile an envious Johnny Ringo......

Anyone wondering about where the Gurkha Kukri originated ?

Now tell me that Alexander the Great didnt travel as far as Nepal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopis
Who else here is a fan of Kipling, and has watched "The Man Who Would be King" ?

Teliliad said:

Ok. Check this though. In very late 1700s Nepal invaded Tibet, which even then was still part of china. It is therefore possible that a Chinese person acquired a Kukri be it a product of theft or spoils of war or some dude ripped it from a corpse and then passed it down to his son who immigrated to America with it to work on the transcontinental railroad say in 1864… only to be killed by an outlaw who then stole the knife and fled to work in the Rockies as a fur trader to escape the long arm of the law… how’s that for possible, lmfao. Sorry, just had to see how far I could take this.

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Yup, that'll run. It's about a good a plot as 'The Braveheart Twins meet Nazi Surf Zombies from Mars', anyhow,

Coinneach said:

But cant you imagine the scenario ?

Gupta Muckerjee..... "Mountain Man" !

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That's a Hindi name. Gurkhas are not Hindi but another ethnic group altogether. And if you watch the recruit selection THEY are most certainly 'mountain men'.

On another thread woks came. Very practical cooking pot. And a trading ship could pick them up.
But whites already had pots and pans, why would they have wanted it?
The same applies here. Europeans had knifes, big, fighting and work knifes. And we’re not taken by ‘new things’ in general. While there were fads most people stayed ‘tried and true’
Until they saw the Nepalese in action I just don’t think they would have been taken with a ‘funny looking Knife’

TFoley said:

That's a Hindi name. Gurkhas are not Hindi but another ethnic group altogether. And if you watch the recruit selection THEY are most certainly 'mountain men'.

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It was a play on India being bordered with Nepal relevant to the discussion here ref how the Kukri could have "travelled" to America.

I'm very familiar with the Brit Army selection of Gurkha recruits, having served with them at times over my 37 year career in the Australian Army, and count among my circle of friends not only Brit Officers who served in Gurkha regiments, but also retired Gurkha NCO's and Soldiers.

Have you been to Nepal ?

Coinneach,
How times change! I neglected to mention that I was in 3RAR at the time I got the free kukris.
An armourer mate of mine was in Borneo during the Confrontation and he told me that the Indos had shot up a Gurkha patrol causing some casualties; he was on a lookout post the following night when three Gurkhas came up and told him and his mate that they were going out.
He said that they stripped down to breech clouts and then thoroughly smeared themselves with butter or marg then armed only with kukris disappeared into thto the night.
He told his relief about them and that they’d said they’d be back before first light.
Next day he said he was called early to come and have a look; there were five stakes in front of the Indo position adorned with five heads.

I believe him!!

Coinneach said:

Actually one of the small knives is a hardened steel sharpening tool, not very efficient but in olden times thats all they had, its more traditional nowadays than actually used as a sharpener.

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The small hard knife is a burnishing tool meant for reestablishing and polishing the edge.

Teliliad said:

I’m just curious here… why didn’t frontiersman carry Kukris? I figure that if a single tool could be pressed to replace three then why not? Kukris are a curved blade that were used by the Nepalese Gurkhas in combat and survival. They performed the tasks of an axe, machete, fighting knife, kitchen knife, throwing weapon, and were heavy and wide enough in the blade to use a hammer in some situations. They could also be used for processing game if you kept it sharp enough. I get that they probably just didn’t have exposure to those kinds of weapons from a different part of the world,,,but I bet it would have been a wonderful tool for some trappers on the frontier

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Just FYI the Kukri is not native to Nepal.
It's a reduced size Greek Kopis



The exposure to the Kopis came with the Arrival of the forces of Alexander the Great

The Nepalese reduced the size as they could not replicate the large blades at first, as their metal was weaker than the Greeks'. They figured it out, but their shorter blades were lighter, handier, and faster for mountain life and their style of fighting, when the Kopis was for hoplites in a phalanx. However, the Nepalese do have much larger versions of the kukri which are Kopis size, used for butchering large animals.... I've seen a tape of the decap of food animals with one blow from a Nepalese Kopis.

FYI The "one knife does it all" scenario is a bit of Balderdash picked up in the 20 the century. It assumes that folks didn't have the brains to figure out how to make such a knife. Then for some reason it becomes some sort of "test" of a "good survival knife" as wilderness survival became a thing in the 1960's. Nobody ever questions the premise, and (imho) any modern "survivalist" or "survival expert" who talks about such, and especially demonstrates "batoning" of firewood has just proved he's not an "expert". It's a silly "test". I've spent many days in the woods, never found a natural piece of wood that would suffice as a baton to beat my knife's spine to make it split wood..... and the folks that literally lived for years depending on their survival tools in North America, and would be true experts..., carried the 'hawk and a knife.

The people who ended up being European colonists were very well versed with the idea of the multiple tool/weapon...



They also applied it from colonial times to today, in hand tools

This is a fascine knife. It has a hooked blade for delimbing small limbs from trees and shrubs, and an axe blade for chopping, and could easily have been made with an additional thrusting tip.



They are so useful in North America, they are still made today, as one can see from the example on the left.

Part of the reason why a Kukri might not have caught on would be the cost. The entirety of those blades have to be good steel. The Tomahawk in a vast majority of cases was a billet of wrought iron wrapped around a mandrel, and then forge welded, with a steel insert welded into the blade position. even with a hammer poll this was done. Add a rather long handle and a small, inexpensively made trade hatchet is a very good tool and a formidable hand weapon. This then allows the frontiersman to spend his money on a good sized, steel, butcher knife for his "long knife", and also likely carried a smaller trade knife. Modern smiths often opt for a steel that even when they wrap-and-weld is good steel for a blade, and skip a step, or they start with a good steel billet, and make the 'hawk with a different procedure. IF you find a smith making 'hawks with iron or low grade steel, and inserting a small piece of quality steel for the blade edge, that smith is doing a rather authentic technique.





LD

Some years ago a collector friend came by two tomahawk heads with provenance to the Braddock's Defeat battlefield. They were not pretty at all. Small, plain and light. No good at all for chopping wood or the like, but when properly fitted with a suitable handle it makes a very quick weapon. Much faster than a larger, heavier axe as used for camp duties. My friend sent one of the heads to Jeff Miller and had three copies made, one for him and one for each of his two sons. I called Jeff and said make that 4 copies.

Last year I bought my brother a Kukri as a thank you gift for helping me on a project. The Company that I ordered it from was in Nepal and the sent me a description of how they were made and their history. It was quite interesting. It takes 4 men 2 days to make one Kukri and they are all paid a fair wage compared to the pennies most earn there. The steel comes from very old truck leaf springs and we were both so impressed with the quality and the price that I ordered one for my Son and one for myself. They also come with two smaller knives traditionally, one is actually a small steel for sharpening the Kukri and the other is a small utility knife for camp use. Both smaller blades are held in place in the same sheath as the Kukri. There is also a cow hoof carved thru the base of the blade signifying their Hindu beliefs.

As I said early on in the thread, I would take a smaller belt knife and camp ax or tomahawk over a large knife. For a lot of years as a youth I carried a Bowie while in the woods. Having grown up in South America using a machete was second nature. I found that the Bowie did not chop things as well as the machete. Nor was it as practical for cutting, slicing and dicing as a smaller belt knife. So for many years now the Bowie has been packed away.
All that said the history of the Kukuri has always fascinated me. As I am a Bladesmith I have often contemplated making one myself. Yet it is a very unique design that would require hours of work. I question whether I would actually ever use it for anything….. so it’s still just a thought. Here is a picture of a Scottish Dirk I finish several years ago. I have quite a bit of Scottish ancestry. Also I just loved the history of the knife and the style. Where is this knife currently? Sitting on my dresser! Why? I find other knife’s more suited to my needs!