Did I do something Stupid??

M. De Land · Nov 18, 2022

BoomStick said:
Just a novice question here, but is the cock usually hardened, or just left as cast? On the rare times I've seen them fail, they usually break and not bend -so I've thought the frizzen and cock are both hardened.

Yes, the whole cock is hardened and has the temper drawn as well on quality locks.

Icemanxxxv · Nov 18, 2022

I puked a little into my throat when I read your post

Horse said:
I can relate. I restored/rebuilt a 65 Mustang. I learned to call my screwups "resto-mods".
I spent 3 years working on it and when it was pretty much done (their never really done) I was driving it to a get together and got t-boned by a guy and driven into a fireplug =Totaled.
View attachment 176041

Hatman/2nd line · Nov 18, 2022

Looking at the face of your frizzen it seems pretty gauged up for being new, I think you took the hardness out?

LRB · Nov 18, 2022

M. De Land said:
Yes, the whole cock is hardened and has the temper drawn as well on quality locks.

No sir! Maybe Kiblers lock plates and cocks are "cased hardened", I don't know, I doubt it, most locks offered today are not hardened in any fashion except for the working parts, and no, they will not wear out for many years of use. "Ideally", locks would be case hardened as were nearly all originals, but originals were usually of wrought iron/steel, not modern steels. I don't know how Chambers locks compare with Kiblers, but they are very damned good, have long life, and are not hardened. If these lock plates and cocks were hardened, you would hear bitching about filing and engraving them. I have engraved a few, file decorated some, and modified some and they cut about as easily as any other piece of low carbon or annealed steel. If the plates and cocks were heat treated for a set degree of hardness, you certainly would not want to fire blue them as some do.

M. De Land · Nov 18, 2022

LRB said:
No sir! Maybe Kiblers lock plates and cocks are "cased hardened", I don't know, I doubt it, most locks offered today are not hardened in any fashion except for the working parts, and no, they will not wear out for many years of use. "Ideally", locks would be case hardened as were nearly all originals, but originals were usually of wrought iron/steel, not modern steels. I don't know how Chambers locks compare with Kiblers, but they are very damned good, have long life, and are not hardened. If these lock plates and cocks were hardened, you would hear bitching about filing and engraving them. I have engraved a few, file decorated some, and modified some and they cut about as easily as any other piece of low carbon or annealed steel. If the plates and cocks were heat treated for a set degree of hardness, you certainly would not want to fire blue them as some do.

Oh yes they are, not file hard but most definitely heat treated harder than the annealed state of the alloy as manufactured . A steel file with a hardness of about 60 Rockwell C scale will readily cut steel of less hardness than itself . File hard for steel work is usually near or above 60 Rockwell C scale .
Cocks will not stand up to maintaining their shape in the neck when non-throated ( which most are not) without the strengthening of heat treatment. Try cold bending one and you will quickly have your answer ! They will often crack even when heat bending them, when made form castings.

LRB · Nov 18, 2022

M. De Land said:
Oh yes they are, not file hard but most definitely heat treated harder than the annealed state of the alloy as manufactured . A steel file with a hardness of about 60 Rockwell C scale will readily cut steel of less hardness than itself . File hard for steel work is usually near or above 60 Rockwell C scale .
Cocks will not stand up to maintaining their shape in the neck when non-throated ( which most are not) without the strengthening of heat treatment. Try cold bending one and you will quickly have your answer ! They will often crack even when heat bending them, when made form castings.

Bull S**t! They are prone to break in cold bending because of large grain size from the casting. Every broken cast part I've seen had a large weak grain structure. Not just BS, but ignorant BS. Just FYI, files are hardened at and some even above 65Rc. A 60Rc file would be near useless. You are BS'ing out of your league Jack, which seems you MO most often.

M. De Land · Nov 18, 2022

LRB said:
Bull S**t! They are prone to break in cold bending because of large grain size from the casting. Every broken cast part I've seen had a large weak grain structure. Not just BS, but ignorant BS. Just FYI, files are hardened at and some even above 65Rc. A 60Rc file would be near useless. You are BS'ing out of your league Jack, which seems you MO most often.

Sorry but your data base needs rebooting as your information is faulty. Look up Nicholson file hardness for steel. They are typically around 59-60 Rc and will max out about R-62 as they become to brittle at much higher than R-64 . And quality cocks "Are Not" left in there annealed state ! I just went out in my shop, pulled the cock on the cheapest flint gun I own and file checked it............... It's been hardened !
About lock plates, one of the main reasons they need to be hardened is because the hole that the tumbler fits through is a bearing. Bearing seats must be hard to resist wear or the cock goes wobbly and the trigger pull become inconsistent.

LRB · Nov 19, 2022

Any decent file will be at 65to 67 Rc., minimum! Look it up rather than make it up which you did! That is why many/most blade makers use them to check and insure adequate hardness after the hardening quench process. I don't know what you consider as a quality lock, but Chambers locks are quality and do not have a hardened cock or plate. If you file test a Chambers cock, or a Kibler cock, you are going to file cut it with very little effort or you're a liar! Sir with all due respect, which pushes my true assessment of you, you don't have a clue of what you're talking about. A case-hardened plate and cock is good and some makers case harden the locks they use, but they do NOT normally come that way from common sources. Original locks of the 18th and early 19th c. were of forged wrought iron. They had to be case hardened against wear. Modern steels used today in quality locks are wear resistant enough to get by well enough without. If you can't file cut a lock cock, it would be either cased or too hard for its job and be brittle, and you would prove to be a liar if you if you claim you can guess Rc hardness much below 65 using a common file.

deerstalkert · Nov 19, 2022

cat fight!

Pete G · Nov 19, 2022

Calm down, fellas, we’re all on the same team.

tallpine · Nov 19, 2022

I have never run into a hardened lock plate or cock. Every gun I have ever built I drilled the holes for the lock bolts with a common HSS drill bit and tapped the threads with a HSS gun tap, went through like butter. i have modified a few cocks,never found one a file would not cut. This has been my experience with mostly Chambers and L&R locks

vintovka · Nov 19, 2022

In a shop you see your fair share of broken parts. From that I would say the real issue is improperly subjecting parts to heat and cooling under less than controlled circumstances. Anyone else agree that "fire bluing" be limited to small parts where wear/durability is not an issue??

M. De Land · Nov 19, 2022

LRB said:
Any decent file will be at 65to 67 Rc., minimum! Look it up rather than make it up which you did! That is why many/most blade makers use them to check and insure adequate hardness after the hardening quench process. I don't know what you consider as a quality lock, but Chambers locks are quality and do not have a hardened cock or plate. If you file test a Chambers cock, or a Kibler cock, you are going to file cut it with very little effort or you're a liar! Sir with all due respect, which pushes my true assessment of you, you don't have a clue of what you're talking about. A case-hardened plate and cock is good and some makers case harden the locks they use, but they do NOT normally come that way from common sources. Original locks of the 18th and early 19th c. were of forged wrought iron. They had to be case hardened against wear. Modern steels used today in quality locks are wear resistant enough to get by well enough without. If you can't file cut a lock cock, it would be either cased or too hard for its job and be brittle, and you would prove to be a liar if you if you claim you can guess Rc hardness much below 65 using a common file.

Wrong about some point, possibly, it's happened before, Liar............... never ! The cock I checked with a file feels hardened to some degree to me.

LRB · Nov 19, 2022

vintovka said:
In a shop you see your fair share of broken parts. From that I would say the real issue is improperly subjecting parts to heat and cooling under less than controlled circumstances. Anyone else agree that "fire bluing" be limited to small parts where wear/durability is not an issue??

I would agree that would be the norm, but with controlled heat and air, some might could do more.

FlinterNick · Nov 19, 2022

Crew Chief said:
In the final assembly of the Kibler SMR. Put the lock in and put a flint in the lock and was suprised that I got no spark. I checked and double checked the position of the flint and still no spark. The only thing different is that I fire blued all the exposed parts. I put no direct fire on the face of the frizzen. Could that be the problem?

I am a novice when it comes the flintlocks. Been shooting percussion for a while. Any help is appreciate.

If you temper a frizzen at or over 500-700 degrees it will soften too much.

Kibler uses 1095 steel for his frizzens i think……

I hardened a few 1095 frizzens a few months back. I heated them to 1600 for 35 - 45 min and then quenched in room temperature mineral oil, worked very well.

I drew back the entire frizzen at 375 for 1 hour.

For the blue color on a frizzen I would use a chemical blue.

You could possibly oxide the frizzen in a solution of boiled nitre salts

64Springer · Nov 19, 2022

vintovka said:
In a shop you see your fair share of broken parts. From that I would say the real issue is improperly subjecting parts to heat and cooling under less than controlled circumstances. Anyone else agree that "fire bluing" be limited to small parts where wear/durability is not an issue??

Fire bluing is for screws and other parts that don't have metal to metal/bearing surface contact. Just one man's opinion.

I will agree that lock plates and hammers are probably not "Hardened". But the make-up of that particular metal alloy was chosen for a reason by the manufacture. Introducing heat will do "Something" to that alloy. Some of us have a working knowledge of heat treatment. But it comes from decades of actual experience. And we have learned what and what not to do through trial and error.

A casual gun builder trying to understand metallurgy overnight is like sending a monkey into the kitchen to bake an apple pie.

It ain't gonna turn out well.

vintovka · Nov 19, 2022

LRB said:
I would agree that would be the norm, but with controlled heat and air, some might could do more.

I agree but some who heat things beyond redhot and quench in whatever available may be the real problem, Seen stuff shatter when dropped on a concrete floor or just snap off on even minimal impact. Brazing the parts back together doesn't really work either as they just break elsewhere.

FlinterNick · Nov 20, 2022

vintovka said:
In a shop you see your fair share of broken parts. From that I would say the real issue is improperly subjecting parts to heat and cooling under less than controlled circumstances. Anyone else agree that "fire bluing" be limited to small parts where wear/durability is not an issue??

I dont fire blue parts very often, if i do I use a small butane torch and its usually temporary.

For long term bluing, I only use a molten t mixture of salts. Caustic Salts, Potasium Nitrate and Sodium Nitrate. at 670 degrees the salts give small parts a black blue color. I do this for screws, sights, some triggers, pins and springs.

All parts sit in the hot salts for about 1 hour until they’re completely dark.

LRB · Nov 20, 2022

FlinterNick said:
I dont fire blue parts very often, if i do I use a small butane torch and its usually temporary.

For long term bluing, I only use a molten t mixture of salts. Caustic Salts, Potasium Nitrate and Sodium Nitrate. at 670 degrees the salts give small parts a black blue color. I do this for screws, sights, some triggers, pins and springs.

All parts sit in th

FlinterNick said:

I dont fire blue parts very often, if i do I use a small butane torch and its usually temporary.

For long term bluing, I only use a molten t mixture of salts. Caustic Salts, Potasium Nitrate and Sodium Nitrate. at 670 degrees the salts give small parts a black blue color. I do this for screws, sights, some triggers, pins and springs.

All parts sit in the hot salts for about 1 hour until they’re completely dark.

Click to expand...

Most that fire blue screw heads and small stuff are looking to get the blue violet color that common hot salts bluing doesn't offer. With handling it doesn't wear well but can usually be redone easily.

waksupi · Nov 20, 2022

Nemo Vir said:
Someone needs to do a video on tuning or fixing a lock. It seems to me no one wants to talk about it as though it’s some trade secret.

Not a trade secret per se, just difficult to video with the magnification needed to show exactly what is being done.

Did I do something Stupid??

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