That Evil Ember

[Scota@4570]

The obvious thing about damp swabbing it is unlikely to get at an ember. An alleged ember would be in the passages of the patent breech that most use. IF it was wet enough to get in there then you would have constant misfires, which is a different danger.

If you pour moose milk down the bore you will extinguish that mythical ember for sure. I have seen guys that do that, it is frustrating for everyone else too.

Swabbing between shots is only for accuracy optimization when I shoot. I never rush, it is pointless, I have modern guns that shoot fast. I always use two benches, one to load one to shoot. At the monthly club shoots we load at a bench behind the line. Loading and shooting from the same bench is asking to light off your flask or horn.

Every example of a cook off I am aware of involved shooting and reloading quickly. Simple, do not do that.

 

[ord sgt]

Ask some of the NSSA shooters if they have a "cook off," and see what they have to say.

While I was a member of the N-SSA, I experienced a "cook-off" while practicing for an upcoming match. Cartridge's preloaded with powder and minie, load and fire while in a timed event. Fired several times, had the next reload in my hand. Pull the minie from the plastic tube and poured the powder charge into the barrel. The loose powder fell upon an ember and it lit. My fingers were over the muzzle, holding the plastic tube. First degree burns were the result.
Also saw another skirmisher have a "cook-off" while on the firing line.

Yes, it can happen. During a timed shooting match, the teams load and fire until all breakable targets have been destroyed, stopping the timer. No time to wipe between shots.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Men for years people post that loading a muzzleloader from flask or horn is not safe because of the EVIL EMBER hiding down the bore. Been shooting for Forty years now and I have never seen the beast that people fear. Caplocks, Flintlocks, and Revolvers have never flared the powder charge on My weapons or any of the people I shoot around. I personally believe loading from a powder measure just gives me a consistent load and that's all.

I have a friend in Vermont who has a 100-yd range set up on his property just out the back door. One day he was loading inside the house and shooting out the open door. He was using one of those brass cylinder powder flasks and loading directly from it. After firing a few shots, as he was loading directly from the flask, the flask ignited and luckily actually rocketed staight up and through his roof instead of turning into brass shrapnel showered all around. He was the one who convinced me that I should never load from the flask but always from a powder measure. I have a couple of different powder measures. One I made from a deer tine and one from a section of bamboo. I use them religiously.

I didn't see this happen, but he did show me the hole in his roof. So I always use my measure and keep it on a leather lanyard in my shooting bag. Grabbing the leather lanyard pops it out of the bag and into my hand where I use my powder horn to fill it. Works great for me.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. His flask had the spring valve on it that would open the top so you could put your finger over the end of the spout, open the spring controlled gate, dump the powder in to fill the spout and release the spring before pouring the powder down the barrel. That spring controlled brass gate is supposed to make it easy to measure (just use a spout of the correct size for your charge) and is also supposed to be a safety feature. It FAILED as a safety feature, so don't bet your life on one of those.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

The obvious thing about damp swabbing it is unlikely to get at an ember. An alleged ember would be in the passages of the patent breech that most use. IF it was wet enough to get in there then you would have constant misfires, which is a different danger.

If you pour moose milk down the bore you will extinguish that mythical ember for sure. I have seen guys that do that, it is frustrating for everyone else too.

Swabbing between shots is only for accuracy optimization when I shoot. I never rush, it is pointless, I have modern guns that shoot fast. I always use two benches, one to load one to shoot. At the monthly club shoots we load at a bench behind the line. Loading and shooting from the same bench is asking to light off your flask or horn.

Every example of a cook off I am aware of involved shooting and reloading quickly. Simple, do not do that.

and another good reason not to use the easily clogged, hard to clean, patent breech. I have a patent breech on one of my longrifles and standard breech on the other. The standard breech is on my best gun, which is the one I use all the time. It's dead simple to clean and a far more reliable longrifle than the one with the patent breech..

 

[Scota@4570]

I have a couple of cap guns that have snails and patent breeches. I do not shoot those rifles or pistols hardly ever. They are not reliable. The patent breech concepts is flawed. Yet they are super common.

I had a Pedersoli patent breech flint lock. What a stupid design decision. I sold it on general principle.

I have a Hawken copy. By definition a Hawken clone must have a patent breech. That is not a good design feature of Hawken rifles.

Rifled muskets have patent breeches. Maybe the hot junk is hiding in those internal passageways. Are all the documented cook offs with rifled muskets?? The ones I have seen videos of were.......

 

[Kevin]

I am more concerned with a cook off from a very hot barrel. You can load fast enough on a hot day while plinking to warm the barrel up where you can't touch it. I think if there is an ember left in the breach the powder would go off as soon as you pour it out of you measure and it gets to the breach.
I don't swab between shots. With the right patch thickness and a wet lube, you can continue till your tired of shooting. Your swabbing with every reload and things are staying consistent. But then again, I ain't shooting for no prize, just for that ding on the steel plate.

 

[Mulebrain]

I have a couple of cap guns that have snails and patent breeches. I do not shoot those rifles or pistols hardly ever. They are not reliable. The patent breech concepts is flawed. Yet they are super common.

I had a Pedersoli patent breech flint lock. What a stupid design decision. I sold it on general principle.

I have a Hawken copy. By definition a Hawken clone must have a patent breech. That is not a good design feature of Hawken rifles.

Rifled muskets have patent breeches. Maybe the hot junk is hiding in those internal passageways. Are all the documented cook offs with rifled muskets?? The ones I have seen videos of were.......

I beg to differ, they are very reliable if they are cleaned properly. Just shot a match in Georgia and one in North Carolina with my Hawken, and
zero failures to fire. That is a lot of shooting too!

 

[maillemaker]

Rifled muskets have patent breeches. Maybe the hot junk is hiding in those internal passageways. Are all the documented cook offs with rifled muskets?? The ones I have seen videos of were.......

I have never encountered a military rifled musket with a patent breech. Original H&P conversions of smoothbore muskets had a patent breech.

Enfields don't, Springfields don't. Can't think of any that do.

Found this thread:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/rifled-musket-patent-breeches.113962/

 

[reddogge]

I witnessed this. At a public range, a guy had a misfire with a percussion rifle. He then blew down the barrel. We packed up and left as quickly as possible.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Something was said above about the patent breech on Hawken rifles. On the original Hawken rifles, the flash channel was bored directly from the base of the nipple seat to the approximate center of the face of the breech plug. The threaded shank of the breech plug was short, by today’s standards, maybe half an inch long. The original Hawkens didn’t have a “powder well” or chamber in the patent breech… just a flash channel directly from the nipple.

The carefully thought-out design features of the original Hawken rifles, in sum, contributed to durability, reliability, and accuracy. There are reasons for the Hawken rifle’s legendary status. Some builders today can produce rifles that are visually very good Hawken copies, but internal features like that direct-drilled flash channel, the “dead iron” barrels, and the choked bore, may be lacking. I think the originals were probably better rifles than many of those produced today.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[ETipp]

This is a good question. Loading and shooting multiple rounds in rapid succession appears to increase the likelihood of a cook-off substantially. I would be interested in hearing from those who have witnessed “cook-offs”…. After about how many rounds are these most likely to occur?

Another thing I have wondered about is whether the type of breech has anything to do with it. Original American percussion military muskets and rifles, as far as I know, had a bolster on the side of the barrel for the nipple, with a very simple breech plug. The flash channel from the nipple base goes directly to the main charge, and the face of the breechplug is flat. A lot of the reproductions use a patent breech, in which the breech plug and bolster or nipple seat are one unit, with a smaller-diameter powder well or chamber connecting the bore to the flash channel. Is one more likely than the other to “cook off”?

I completed “cannon school” at Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine maybe 10-12 years ago. I recall they stressed the importance of waiting a certain amount of time in between shots with the cannon to allow any possible ember time to burn out. Maybe half an hour? I don’t remember. I do know that you do not want a cook-off while loading a cannon.

Notchy Bob

My guess is that an ember/cookoff would most likely occur after several rounds and in quick succession. I do not see it happening with a relatively clean bore and/or a little time between shots. It simply does not seem as if there would be enough fouling caked in there to torch off with a cleaner bore.

 

[waksupi]

I witnessed this. At a public range, a guy had a misfire with a percussion rifle. He then blew down the barrel. We packed up and left as quickly as possible.

It was Darwin's turn to shoot!

 

[Flinter1776]

So would blowing down the barrel after a shot extinguish an ember or fuel it ?

While that was done in the past, it is no longer an acceptable behavior on the line. In fact, it's a good way to get kicked off the shooting line of any organizational match

 

[longcruise]

The BP flatulency is a whole other matter.

I get that just from the fouling on my hands.

The obvious thing about damp swabbing it is unlikely to get at an ember.

The damp patch is not meant to drown embers. However, the action of pushing a patch down the bore is going to create a rush of air through the barrel and out the vent or nipple. Probably more effective than blowing down the barrel.

I shoot mostly patent breech percussion guns and have never had this experience of flooding the flash channel. Seen it happen but it's all about knowing just how damp the patch should be. It's firearm management.

 

[stephenprops1]

A man was killed earlier this year working some cattle down the road from us. Those big bulls ain't no joke when you're on ground level with them.

I once saw a bull come through a gate that was barely open and catch it with his shoulder. That gate swung around so fast that the owner never saw it coming. I mean, it swung like there was an explosion behind it. The top rail of that pipe gate connected squarely with his dome. I would have put my money on little 80 year old Mr. Taylor being dead instantly, but he came to and began moving around on his own. Got checked out later that day and even escaped concussion.

Respect, attention to body language, and the ability to vertically scale whatever is handy will keep you safe from the KILLER KOWS
View attachment 246756

That looks like a vampire cow. First one I've ever seen.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

While that was done in the past, it is no longer an acceptable behavior on the line. In fact, it's a good way to get kicked off the shooting line of any organizational match

Been doing it at several rondies for decades, no one has ever said a thing.

 

[Flinter1776]

Been doing it at several rondies for decades, no one has ever said a thing.

It violates NMLRA, NRA, and a host of other organizations' range rules. I learned to do it myself when I started shooting in the 70s, but things change. When I became a professional RSO and instructor, I learned that "optics" are important. In other words, it's about setting a good example for new shooters so they don't pick up bad habits or otherwise misinterpret what they're seeing.

 

[waksupi]

It violates NMLRA, NRA, and a host of other organizations' range rules. I learned to do it myself when I started shooting in the 70s, but things change. When I became a professional RSO and instructor, I learned that "optics" are important. In other words, it's about setting a good example for new shooters so they don't pick up bad habits or otherwise misinterpret what they're seeing.

I'm not sure where I found this, it may have been on this forum;

Where did this ban on blowing down the barrel originate? In a Presidential Message written by Tom Schiffer of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA) in February 1992, he described blowing down the barrel as a harmless ‘ritual’, but still a bad habit that can lead shooters to be distracted “when the shooter is concentrating on the alignment hold and release” and make some undefined hazardous mistake. The NMLRA has never held that blowing down the barrel, as I have defined it, is dangerous in itself.

President Schiffer made two basic arguments in supporting their position:

First, a person might be blowing down the fired barrel of a double barrel gun with the other barrel still loaded. This argument is absurd. You never put your face in front of even a potentially loaded gun, double barrel or not. If y
ou are prone to being so absent minded, you also shouldn’t be permitted to go out alone or have things like a driver’s license.

The second argument was that a shooter may not notice that the gun they thought they had just fired actually had experienced only a severe hang fire, and it may then fire as the shooter blows down the barrel. This tragedy apparently actually happened with a woman who was new to muzzleloading. It’s hard for me to understand how anybody could fail to realize, after shooting the firearm even once, what a real discharge feels like.

 

[deerstalkert]

probably already written as i am tail end charley these days, but the culprit most often causing cook-offs is an ember of the patch material still smoldering in the tube. many think it is a residue of powder but i doubt that. physics being what it is and all.

 

[#blackpowderbill]