Risks of measuring your charge with the spout/suggested charges? (percussion pistol)

[Shad Banta]

I'm relatively new to black powder shooting and I was wondering if there are any potential hazards if I were to measure a charge with an 18 grain spout versus using a powder measure to load the same size charge. I own a Pietta 1851 Navy "Yank" in .36 caliber and I have a colt style powder flask. Pietta recommends a charge of 9-12 grains of FFFG powder and they state that the maximum safe charge for .36 caliber is 22 grains of FFFg powder. I hope some of you more experienced shooters can give your input about what grain charge you use and if there is any difference in safety, performance, or consistency when loading a spout charge versus a measured amount with a powder measure.

 

[Tweeter and the MonkeyMan]

I shoot an original 1851 Navy made in 1865, every charge is 18 grains measured with a TDC powder measure with a swivel funnel to ensure the charge is consistent EVERY time.

I'm not sure how consistent the charge from a loading spout charge actually is, some sources I've read say very consistent and other sources say there is slight variation in the charge due to soft flesh from your finger going into the charge spout when you tip the flask and giving you a lighter charge, I'm sure someone with more experience with flasks can clarify this.

I also only use FFFG black powder, no substitutes as these revolvers are designed and built to use black powder.

Additionally I use a 1/4 inch lubricated wad to bring the ball to within 1/8 inch of the end of the cylinder, testing has shown I get better grouping with the ball set closer to to end of the cylinder. The lubricated wad keeps BP fouling soft and helps prevent chain fires at the back of the cylinder and also ensure the percussion caps fit the nipples securely and snugly helps prevent chain fires at the front of the cylinder.

I personally would follow manufacturers recommendations as they would have done the testing etc to determine the safe limits.

If you're new to BP shooting there is a ton of information and experience to tap into in this forum, you can also check out duellist1954 on You Tube, his videos are extremely informative and educational.

 

[TDM]

18 grs is fine for your revolver. It’s not a light load, but not max either. I routinely use 20 in my .36’s. Your 18 gr spout should be accurate enough but I’d suggest making a number of test pours and checking them in a decent adjustable powder measure. Give the flask a shake, finger over the spout, push the gate open, turn it upside down, and close the gate. If you repeat the process the same each time you should get an equal powder throw.

 

[64Springer]

An 18 grain spout is an 18 grain powder measure.

And regardless of how much powder you stuff in that cylinder, it won't blow up.

Enjoy your pistol and don't over think it.

Especially the soft flesh of your finger in the spout part.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Shad Banta, you have the "Yank" revolver with the steel frame. This is good as we can use a wider range of powder charges.

There's a long discussion of measuring powder charges for revolvers. Historically the measuring was done by filling the measure on the flask and filling the cylinder from the flask. This is safe as there is usually lots of time for any embers to burn out in the cylinder. Not to mention there wasn't a lot of reloading of the revolver to continue shooting. Most of us will use the measure on the flask to pour powder into the cylinder. Whether you use a separate measure or the built in measure, the selected amount of powder will be contained. Like the other recommendations, 18 grains of powder should be good for your shootin needs. Later we can talk about other, more complicated methods to fill the cylinder, but for now you should be good to go with loose powder, a 0.375 or 0.380 ball.

 

[Shad Banta]

I appreciate the input I’ve had from you guys and hopefully soon my spouts will come in the mail and we can go do some shooting

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

What is the real amount of powder delivered from a spout? Only weighing them will tell. Drop 10 loads from your spout, using your finger over the opening and your thumb operating the lever (if a flask), and see what you get weighed on a good scale. I have seen spouts that were listed for x grains deliver Y grains, and technique creates variables.

If you have a variable measure, test to see if the markings are even close to the amount of powder marked.

You don't have to worry a lot about over-charges, but consistency is what consistency does....produces tight groups.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[Blitz]

18 grs is fine for your revolver. It’s not a light load, but not max either. I routinely use 20 in my .36’s. Your 18 gr spout should be accurate enough but I’d suggest making a number of test pours and checking them in a decent adjustable powder measure. Give the flask a shake, finger over the spout, push the gate open, turn it upside down, and close the gate. If you repeat the process the same each time you should get an equal powder throw.

If using only your finger on thr powder spout it will never be a maximum fill i.e,. it will always be a bit less .
throw some spout loads , with finger stop and ihen measure them with adjustable measure, to see for yourself.

Blitz

 

[snakebit]

I think my paper cartridges measure out to 17 grains. If you have fat fingers like me take a #2 pencil with fresh eraser to seat your caps. Take a look at the slix shot replacement nipples. That take #11's good, and avoid cap jams. Have fun with it.

 

[French Colonial]

I shoot an original 1851 Navy made in 1865, every charge is 18 grains measured with a TDC powder measure with a swivel funnel to ensure the charge is consistent EVERY time.

I'm not sure how consistent the charge from a loading spout charge actually is, some sources I've read say very consistent and other sources say there is slight variation in the charge due to soft flesh from your finger going into the charge spout when you tip the flask and giving you a lighter charge, I'm sure someone with more experience with flasks can clarify this.

I also only use FFFG black powder, no substitutes as these revolvers are designed and built to use black powder.

Additionally I use a 1/4 inch lubricated wad to bring the ball to within 1/8 inch of the end of the cylinder, testing has shown I get better grouping with the ball set closer to to end of the cylinder. The lubricated wad keeps BP fouling soft and helps prevent chain fires at the back of the cylinder and also ensure the percussion caps fit the nipples securely and snugly helps prevent chain fires at the front of the cylinder.

I personally would follow manufacturers recommendations as they would have done the testing etc to determine the safe limits.

If you're new to BP shooting there is a ton of information and experience to tap into in this forum, you can also check out duellist1954 on You Tube, his videos are extremely informative and educational.

The lubricated wad keeps BP fouling soft and helps prevent chain fires at the back of the cylinder and also ensure the percussion caps fit the nipples securely and snugly helps prevent chain fires at the front of the cylinder.

Just curious, how does a lubricated wad prevent chain fires at the rear of the cylinder and ensure percussion caps fit the nipples securely. Not trying to argue, just would like to know your thinking here.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I also would go with 20gr.
Right in the middle of the chart and if your using your finger over the end of the measurer then your not going to get all 20gr in there any way.

I only have a 44 and I use a 30gr spout, with a guitar pick over the end to get an exact amount.
I get al 30 grains.

 

[wiscoaster]

18 grains?? I can't measure that close in my powder measure. Usually I just round to the next nearest five grains. To think I'm getting exactly 18 grains from either a powder measure or from a spout is silly, IMO. For one thing, both measures are measuring by volume, not weight. Maybe the marks on the measure are calibrated for weight, but ... for another thing, poured powder is loose and not settled. If you haven't ever checked, you'll be surprised how much powder settles in a powder measure when you settle it just by tapping. A couple grains' worth at least. I assume the same for a spout. So what do you do? Add more to top it off? Basically the same as rounding up but not settling, I think.

 

[Blitz]

The lubricated wad keeps BP fouling soft and helps prevent chain fires at the back of the cylinder and also ensure the percussion caps fit the nipples securely and snugly helps prevent chain fires at the front of the cylinder.

Just curious, how does a lubricated wad prevent chain fires at the rear of the cylinder and ensure percussion caps fit the nipples securely. Not trying to argue, just would like to know your thinking here.

Sounds bsck asswards to conventional thinkers .
Wonder which piece is being pointed.

Blitz

 

[Blitz]

18 grains?? I can't measure that close in my powder measure. Usually I just round up to the next nearest five grains. To think I'm getting exactly 18 grains from either a powder measure or from a spout is silly, IMO. For one thing, both measures are measuring by volume, not weight. Maybe the marks on the measure are calibrated for weight, but ... for another thing, poured powder is loose and not settled. If you haven't ever checked, you'll be surprised how much powder settles in a powder measure when you settle it just by tapping. A couple grains' worth at least. I assume the same for a spout.

Why point out a couple of grains settlement when you do not seem to care about adding five grains ?
Shoot what you like but as has been said before consistancy is the correct approach. Blitz

 

[CaptainVane]

As Blitz says last sentence. My 51 Navy .36, i started at 20g, but found same accuracy with 15g. I shoot 75 to 100 balls a week. So I am saving a lot of powder at 15g. YMMV.

 

[wiscoaster]

... when you do not seem to care about adding five grains ?

No, sorry, you're misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I said. I said because I can't measure to such a precise level with a powder measure because of the factors stated, I round to five grains, and then I don't have to take into account powder settling. Essentially the rounding accounts for the settling. And I'm shooting for fun, not for competition. I'm really not too worried about tight groups. Yes, one has to be precise and consistent if that's the goal, and if that's what it is maybe it's better to preload into charge tubes at home with a powder scale rather than in the field with a powder measure or spout. Which didn't seem to be the OP's primary concern. His concern seemed mainly to be about safety using a spout vs. a measure, wrt to the precision of amounts dispensed, and my approach with a measure and less precision is not at all unsafe by any means.

 

[dracer]

An 18 grain spout is an 18 grain powder measure.

And regardless of how much powder you stuff in that cylinder, it won't blow up.

Enjoy your pistol and don't over think it.

Especially the soft flesh of your finger in the spout part.

agree

 

[flntlokr]

18 grs is fine for your revolver. It’s not a light load, but not max either. I routinely use 20 in my .36’s. Your 18 gr spout should be accurate enough but I’d suggest making a number of test pours and checking them in a decent adjustable powder measure. Give the flask a shake, finger over the spout, push the gate open, turn it upside down, and close the gate. If you repeat the process the same each time you should get an equal powder throw.

Exactly! The spouts were originally noised about as 'safety spouts' because the valve would (theoretically at least) prevent a cook-off from igniting the entire container full of powder. I use the flask to load my single shots as well. I checked volumes a number of times, and even those small loads were within a few % when weighed; good enough for my needs at any rate.

 

[Blitz]

agree

how very true , but every measuring spout I have will throw less than stated amount , at least with my finger. I have measured after throwing and charge has always been a few grains less.
No worryies about an overcharge. Try it.

Blitz

 

[Blitz]

agree

agree

Depending upon your faith in experts i.e. Elmer kieth, said of percussion revolver to fill to a level that with a wad you have just enough room for the ball and you are good.
Ihave used his method and have had no problems. I would not use this method with the early Colt walkers given the number of times reading of cylinder eruptions with those revolvers, and I do believe Sam Colt later recomended a max of 50 grains powder.
In my limited experience many max or very large loads are a waste , as much of the powder is blown out unburned.

Blitz