like my pistol just fine.
camo
camo
-
This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.
Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades -
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Military Heritage Arms aka Access Heritage arms in Canada ?????
- Thread starter Jimmichanga
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Looks great to me. I wouldn't kick it out of the gun safe. Nurse... That is a great and honorable career. But with your level of knowledge on the HC stuff I had you pegged for an American history professor. Cool.
So I’ve talked with Robert at Heritage Arms and he seems like a good sort. So we’re probably gonna go ahead and try one of his museum quality pieces that is non firing. Thanks for all the advice and conversation here on the chat. I think we have it figured out.
If tge lock sparks as well as a chambers or Davis or silar, if it’s crisp and clean what could I gain by a ‘better quality lock’?
If the wood to metal fit is the same as on a gun costing just twice is much where I’d the loss of quality?
If the weight is the same and balance the same where is their poor balance.
This Indian gun out weighs my TFC and certainly my SMR, but 9.4 pounds is about what a long land bess weighs. This isn’t a long land but has similar stock and 46 inch barrel.
If I didn’t know it was a Indian gun I would guess the wood walnut
Fore arm chunky? Sure is, but not unusual on any OTC gun, not but a day to do that.
No otc guns I’ve seen had ramrods worth a darn, so I expected that replacement.
Ballshooter
45 Cal.
I will say this I looked at them and was tempted..but then came to my senses I saw the Kibler at $830 +$300 for the lock. So $1,130 for a work of art Or spend $ 800 bucks on something that may or may not need work. It was an easy choice for me.
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2018
- Messages
- 3,233
- Reaction score
- 2,299
Most Indian guns I’ve worked on that have been sent to me are not what i would describe as good quality.
On a scale of bad, good, very good and excellent, they’re not good quality.
However, I’ve defarbed many, hand made stronger springs refinished the stocks with dye and properly sealed , and polished correctly and they are well received by their owners. However, the cost of the work varies between 100-200 for lock work and a total defarb is no less than $300 with historical stamps.
So i always was myself, if you’re going to spend 700 - 800 on a few of these Indian guns and another 500-1000 on work, why not spend a little more for some higher quality in a kit gun, pedersoli or custom gun.
Indian guns also don’t hold value, most people i know do not recover what they spent on Indian made guns.
Now not all are bad, can you get some very good ones, yes you can. However….. You must go and hand select the best ones available if your’e able to. If you can handle three of them they have in stock, check the locks, wood grain, inspect the gun then you maybe able to find a gem in the rough.
On another note, I’d be weary of some of the business practices of many of the Indian gun dealers. I’ve got a few friends that have waited nearly 2 years for a gun from Middlesex Trading that they stated they had in stock and did not. The owner will not cancel the transaction without keeping 50%. Nevermind the fact that he’s been holding the customer’s money for over 600 days. don’t buy from middlesex.
Last edited:
I have a Loyalist Arms that I purchased 20 plus years ago. Still works fine and outside of flints have never had to replace a part. Most accurate of the smoothies I have owned to boot.
LOL comparing a Kibler to ANY of the factory muskets out there including Italian, is comparing an Audi A6 to a Nissan Sentra.
Why would people send guns to you that have no problems? So of course you see the bad versions, eh?
Quite correct, If you're going to spend that much, get a custom made gun. BUT again, your experience tells me the people who pay for that are silly. One does not buy an Indian origin musket to then drop $500-$1000 extra. I know a lot of folks that have them, NONE have done that from my experience.
Really? I've actually owned five, sold one, for 10% less than what I paid for it, and it was only three years old at the time. ALL of the muskets and trade guns were sent to me sight-unseen, and all looked and worked just fine. OH I did paint the trade gun, so I dropped $30 on oil-based paint. ODD too that my barrels came with faux British proofing stamps... at no extra charge...OH I could ask for different names on the lock as the lock maker too.... no charge.
I sure as heck am not dropping $1300.00 for the parts for a proper Long Land Pattern Bess (assuming that COVID hasn't pushed that price up), then $1000.00 to have it assembled (IF I can find a proper person to assemble it for that low a price) then get a bayonet and have it fitted and marked for another $400.00 and then go romping through the woods, overnight in the rain, exposing it to high heat and freezing temps. NOT and expect it to "hold its value" either.
Let's check the math...,
I decide to do French and Indian War living history, and maybe some hunting, so..., spend $700 on a Long Land Pattern Musket, plus $60 for a bayonet, shipping is say $60, It comes reenactor ready with the touch hole drilled, and a flash guard on the lock, and all I have to do is to assemble the lock into the stock, and install a flint-n-lead wrap, and a sling. So far, I've spent less than a used Pedersoli or Miroku Bess without a bayonet, and neither of them is at all correct for F&I War living history. AND I order the Loyalist Arms musket today, and it's here by June 1st.
I use this musket for say five years, then I get out of reenacting, and decide to sell it. I tied up $830 into it, had a great five years, and even took a few deer with it. I sell it for $460... so I'm out $400.00
Scenario change...., I opt for a correct musket, and drop $1360 for the parts today. The parts arrive from The Rifle Shoppe April of 2024. Then the parts go off to the builder. The builder makes me an excellent copy of a pre-F&I Long Land Pattern Musket. Total cost to me is now $2700.00, and it's delivered in April of 2025. OH wait, I need a custom bayonet, and a sling, and an excellent case to transport my custom Bess, so the total cost is now, a cool $3000.00. I have $3K wrapped up in this gun.
Three years later, the same situation happens to me as the previous scenario, and I get out of living history, and decide to sell my Bess... but nobody wants to buy it at $3000.00. You see in that three years I subjected it to a lot of the same use and stress that I would my India origin musket. But, yes, it has very good parts and was very well made...., and I did a good job of caring for it (Heck it cost $3000) but field use in all sorts of weather has taken it's toll. I can only find a buyer who is willing to pay me in cash, $2200.00. So I've had two years less fun with it, and I'm out $800.00
OR I sit on it, and hope in the future, after many years, I can recoup my $3000....,... OR I could drop $2000.00 today and order a Perdersoli Bess and bayonet, and get the extra stuff needed for living history, and be ready to go by June 1st of this, year. And again sell it in five years for $1200.00 and be out $800
... because Pedersoli offers a kit, that only needs sanding, staining, and finishing, so why pay more than that for a field worn Bess, when a kit plus a little labor that results in a new Bess, with no wear will run $1400.00.I prefer my math, sorry.... the least loss is from the India musket, plus I got more fun out of it (two more years use) than the custom musket.... (An expensive piece hanging on the wall for me isn't "fun", but for others this may not be so. To each their own. )
WOW ..., Middlesex Village Trading Company, which has been notorious for poor customer service and poor product for years now, yet you are implying there are others out there cut from the same cloth, casting suspicion on Veteran Arms, Military Heritage, and Loyalist Arms LLC, ....,
So in closing, for some people, an India origin Bess is a very good option, and it doesn't mean they have poor standards, poor judgement, are cheapskates or accept low quality.
LD
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2018
- Messages
- 3,233
- Reaction score
- 2,299
LOL comparing a Kibler to ANY of the muskets out there including Italian, is comparing an Audi A6 to a Nissan Sentra.
Why would people send guns to you that have no problems? So of course you see the bad versions, eh?
Quite correct, If you're going to spend that much, get a custom made gun. BUT again, your experience tells me the people who pay for that are silly. One does not buy an Indian origin musket to then drop $500-$1000 extra. I know a lot of folks that have them, NONE have done that from my experience.
Really? I've actually owned five, sold one, for 10% less than what I paid for it, and it was only three years old at the time. ALL of the muskets and trade guns were sent to me sight-unseen, and all looked and worked just fine. OH I did paint the trade gun, so I dropped $30 on oil-based paint. ODD too that my barrels came with faux British proofing stamps... at no extra charge...OH I could ask for different names on the lock as the lock maker too.... no charge.
I sure as heck am not dropping $1300.00 for the parts for a proper Long Land Pattern Bess (assuming that COVID hasn't pushed that price up), then $1000.00 to have it assembled (IF I can find a proper person to assemble it for that low a price) then get a bayonet and have it fitted and marked for another $400.00 and then go romping through the woods, overnight in the rain, exposing it to high heat and freezing temps. NOT and expect it to "hold its value" either.
Let's check the math...,
I decide to do French and Indian War living history, and maybe some hunting, so..., spend $700 on a Long Land Pattern Musket, plus $60 for a bayonet, shipping is say $60, It comes reenactor ready with the touch hole drilled, and a flash guard on the lock, and all I have to do is to assemble the lock into the stock, and install a flint-n-lead wrap, and a sling. So far, I've spent less than a used Pedersoli or Miroku Bess without a bayonet, and neither of them is at all correct for F&I War living history. AND I order the Loyalist Arms musket today, and it's here by June 1st.
I use this musket for say five years, then I get out of reenacting, and decide to sell it. I tied up $830 into it, had a great five years, and even took a few deer with it. I sell it for $460... so I'm out $400.00
Scenario change...., I opt for a correct musket, and drop $1360 for the parts today. The parts arrive from The Rifle Shoppe April of 2024. Then the parts go off to the builder. The builder makes me an excellent copy of a pre-F&I Long Land Pattern Musket. Total cost to me is now $2700.00, and it's delivered in April of 2025. OH wait, I need a custom bayonet, and a sling, and an excellent case to transport my custom Bess, so the total cost is now, a cool $3000.00. I have $3K wrapped up in this gun.
Three years later, the same situation happens to me as the previous scenario, and I get out of living history, and decide to sell my Bess... but nobody wants to buy it at $3000.00. You see in that three years I subjected it to a lot of the same use and stress that I would my India origin musket. But, yes, it has very good parts and was very well made...., and I did a good job of caring for it (Heck it cost $3000) but field use in all sorts of weather has taken it's toll. I can only find a buyer who is willing to pay me in cash, $2200.00. So I've had two years less fun with it, and I'm out $800.00
... OR I could drop $2000.00 today and order a Perdersoli Bess and bayonet, and get the extra stuff needed for living history, and be ready to go by June 1st of this, year. And again sell it in five years for $1200.00 and be out $800... because Pedersoli offers a kit, that only needs sanding, staining, and finishing, so why pay more than that for a field worn Bess, when a kit plus a little labor that results in a new Bess, with no wear will run $1400.00.
I prefer my math, sorry.... the least loss is from the India musket, plus I got more fun out of it (two more years use) than the custom musket.... (An expensive piece hanging on the wall for me isn't "fun", but for others this may not be so. To each their own. )
WOW ..., Middlesex Village Trading Company, which has been notorious for poor customer service and poor product for years now, yet you are implying there are others out there cut from the same cloth, casting suspicion on Veteran Arms, Military Heritage, and Loyalist Arms LLC, ....,
So in closing, for some people, an India origin Bess is a very good option, and it doesn't mean they have poor standards, poor judgement, are cheapskates or accept low quality.
LD
Yup I get the bad ones however many of the ones I get are newer also.
Costs: Dave you work on your own stuff, your costs are not going to be relative to someone who can’t or work on their own guns. You have skill and knowledge most do not. So it will cost them, or they find someone to work for free. Add some multiples to your math.
Value: yes most will not resell for their basis and upgrades. I stand by that claim stubbornly. Maybe you know how to sell a Subaru at the value of a Benz that’s not relative to most who will list their guns.
Value is relative if you make 100% profit on one of your guns that’s your buyers loss they won’t be able to recover. I can confidently tell someone if you buy a miroku for $1,000 you’ll be able to sell it for $1,000 or more if you buy a loyalist trade gun for $800 and dump 600 into it, you’ll have a difficult time returning that value.
If you buy indism keep it simple and concise, clean it, stain it, polish it, keep the lock in good order. Don’t add a rifle shop lock, or Pedersoli lock, add a new barrel…. Get rid of the gun.
Business practices: yes at least two of the major US distributors have poor business reviews… and I clearly said don’t buy from middlesex, I never said anything about the other distributors. I’ve in fact promoted loyalist products as the go to fit Indian made arms.
If you drop 2k on a Pedersoli and kit, that’s your problem, I stated many are available cheaper if you shop around. You certainly don’t need a Pedersoli bayonet at 200$.
Hand made parts? Cheap really come on Dave ?! Again if you fix your own great but many of these in poor working conditions do not have drop in parts. In fact I’d say all dont.
Last edited:
Um nope..., none of what I wrote included me doing any of the work... oh except for slapping paint on the trade gun stock.
You can be as stubborn as you wish. In what I wrote, NONE had upgrades beyond what was paid for out of the box when it came to the over-the-counter-guns, and ALL lost money on the resale, Custom, Factory Italian, or India. You fail to factor in market forces like theoretical physicists ignore friction. What I described is the world of Bess muskets. Has been for decades now...,
No, a FACTORY Pedersoli with bayonet and all the extras that make it the same as the India musket at $830 make it a $2000 investment when buying from Dixie Gun Works, or Cabela's, Taylor's, or IFG. You want a bayonet that fits, you want an Italian one. IF it was me, as you said I can "work" on a Bess (well sort of anyway) I'd buy the kit at $1200 IF I wanted a Pedersoli. As you correctly point out, many folks cannot do that, so back to $2000 for one out-of-the-box.
TRUE, and FAIR POINT....,
IF I break a main spring or a frizzen spring, that's a huge can of worms for me. They all worked fine as soon as I put the lock into the stock.
So far I've had to replace, and in some cases fit, main springs on several Pedersoli muskets (thankfully Track sells after market mainsprings for Pedersoli Bess, as they are $57 cheaper than Pedersoli), and fit other springs to Miroku Bess.
I've had the India muskets for more than a decade, close to two, haven't broken a spring of any sort yet. Of course I may have just jinxed myself, so....
I notice that the other springs for Bess from Track are out-of-stock. Seem to be all over the place, out-of-stock.. The difference between not being able to buy and drop-in a broken part because they are not standardized, and not being able to replace a factory part because they are not available, is the same... the musket is broken.
Waiting two to three years for an actual proper musket is also the same as having a broken one..., neither goes bang. I bet with a broken main spring on my India musket I can get it replaced and the musket back into service while the guy is still waiting for his perfect musket to arrive....
OH... to be open about this, sure I've had to add carbon to frizzens, on MVTC musket locks AND on Pedersoli's. Not on Japanese Bess though ; really wish Miroku would make them again....
LD
If one wants to participate with a close to proper Land Pattern Musket for the French and Indian War, the only choices are to buy an Indian manufactured gun or wait on getting a parts set from The Rifle Shoppe. One could wait for a proper Long Land Pattern musket to show up in the used market. That may be a longer wait than getting the parts from The Rifle Shoppe.
I am also one of those using a Long Land Pattern Musket from Loyalist Arms. With respect to full disclosure, my King's Musket of the 1730 pattern would have been replaced by a 1742 pattern to be more accurate to the period. Although my unit was sent to the colonies from the Irish Establishment and having a Dublin Castle marked lockplate is a plus.
Now back to @Jimmichanga's requirements. He must have a representative but non-firing (no touch hole) but sparking Land Pattern Musket to use for demonstrations of the firearms used in the American Revolutionary War. He cannot have a firearm with a touch hole no matter how much better it is in function than an India manufactured firearm. He cannot have one that has its touch hole filled or a touch hole liner replaced with a bolt. This leaves him with no better choices than ordering a Land Pattern Musket manufactured in India. He has ordered such a musket and I believe he made a reasonable choice although I may have wanted to talk to Loyalist Arms.
Bashing the India manufactured guns is of little benefit or help in finding a gun to meet Jimmichanga's requirements.
I am also one of those using a Long Land Pattern Musket from Loyalist Arms. With respect to full disclosure, my King's Musket of the 1730 pattern would have been replaced by a 1742 pattern to be more accurate to the period. Although my unit was sent to the colonies from the Irish Establishment and having a Dublin Castle marked lockplate is a plus.
Now back to @Jimmichanga's requirements. He must have a representative but non-firing (no touch hole) but sparking Land Pattern Musket to use for demonstrations of the firearms used in the American Revolutionary War. He cannot have a firearm with a touch hole no matter how much better it is in function than an India manufactured firearm. He cannot have one that has its touch hole filled or a touch hole liner replaced with a bolt. This leaves him with no better choices than ordering a Land Pattern Musket manufactured in India. He has ordered such a musket and I believe he made a reasonable choice although I may have wanted to talk to Loyalist Arms.
Bashing the India manufactured guns is of little benefit or help in finding a gun to meet Jimmichanga's requirements.
I have more issues with my Pedersoli guns than my India ones. You get what you pay and are willing to wait for. Yes, custom guns are a lot better and you will pay and wait for them. My India guns came from Loyalist Arms and Military Heritage. I had to drill the touch hole on the MH. Loyalist drills the touch hole and does a little tuning before shipping. Both have great customer service and I would recommend them.
I must also add that I'm in California and am jealous of you east coasters with access to custom guns and builders fairs. My only option is sight unseen and hope for a good recommendation on a builder. In the meantime, I'll be shooting my imports.
I must also add that I'm in California and am jealous of you east coasters with access to custom guns and builders fairs. My only option is sight unseen and hope for a good recommendation on a builder. In the meantime, I'll be shooting my imports.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2005
- Messages
- 1,159
- Reaction score
- 1,464
i hate to see posts that start out with, What is the cheapest gun I can find?
Like every thing else, you get what you pay for.
Saving some money to be totally frustrated every time you take a gun out, will do nothing for you, or the sport.
Better to buy old and dependable, than new and non functional.
Like every thing else, you get what you pay for.
Saving some money to be totally frustrated every time you take a gun out, will do nothing for you, or the sport.
Better to buy old and dependable, than new and non functional.
Nick, my question is WHICH importer did that gun come from? Or was it not one of the main ones?
And I got my Pedersoli Bess for $300, but you know that was total luck and from a buddy. With defarb, new mainspring, etc. I have like $800 in it. Luck. I’ll never get a long land like that.
I make decent money, but a custom musket is out of the picture.
I’ll ask again though, where did that gun come from? Military Heritage, Loyalist, Veteran Arms, Middlesex… some of these are better. Differently done.
Sure, none are Rifle Shoppe parts and a custom builder. But most just can’t afford the other route. You have said about a thousand times that the Pedersoli Bess is wrong. And new ones are pricey. Guys will buy what they can afford.
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2018
- Messages
- 3,233
- Reaction score
- 2,299
It was a veteran arms gun. I defarbed the lock a little and tuned it up.
Not many one or two. I think the older ones were 6150 steel now they use en42. I’ve had to redrill a few though, all Lott locks.
But I don’t carburize, i case harden 6150 steel or frizzens I’m unsure of, Indian frizzens the steel type is not readily available, and they’re all different so i case harden.
Carburized is best used for small things like screws. Carburizing with Karenite or cherry red is a very short term solution to adding carbon to a frizzen, i stopped doing it years ago.
Attachments
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2018
- Messages
- 3,233
- Reaction score
- 2,299
The Bess … no idea, it’s pretty old guessing at least 30 years old. There were some Indian gun markers in the 1990s.
Thanks. Charles says he will stand behind his locks and stuff. Did he not?
Nick, I don’t see a solution. Most guys just can’t afford better.
Nick, I don’t see a solution. Most guys just can’t afford better.
The thing that gets me is that the Indian guns are so buffed out and shiny. And the wood… off I know that I’ll have to alter something, I’d rather it come not buffed out and without a stock finish. If It’s a real dog, I guess I could grovel 
and see, beg Nick, who I know, KNOWS his stuff. (As he pulls out the Marsh voodoo doll). I don’t see a lot of solutions.
Nick, when you get these locks, what do you have to do to them?
and see, beg Nick, who I know, KNOWS his stuff. (As he pulls out the Marsh voodoo doll). I don’t see a lot of solutions. Nick, when you get these locks, what do you have to do to them?
