Offhand Practice

[Scipio]

CC:

Roger -- got it. The shooter is having difficulty with a barrel heavy muzzle loader, both in seating the ball and in holding off hand.

If I were their coach, I would go with a mechanical fix first. Two things. Get a barrel that is not so muzzle heavy that the shooter is struggling to hold well and get a stock that fits the shooter well enough that they have a better NPA and better balance with the rifle. Yes, it may entail a shorter barrel and that means shorter sight radius. However, if the shooter can now balance the rifle more efficiently, problems from a short sight radius will be null.

So, figure out why the rifle is out of balance and make it right. Will it cost a bundle? You better believe it. Will it work? I would bet the extra cost that it will immediately improve performance.

As for seating the ball. Never experienced this with anyone but if I did, and there was no patch / lube / ball fix, it is probably because they aren't making good use of their arms and body weight. Ramming the ball down wouldn't be a chest problem either. Wrist, forearm, and bicep along with technique most likely.

If someone were to ask my advice on strength training for off hand shooting I would probably advise them to get stronger and more powerful legs first. Stability in standing comes from the legs and lower back and deadlifting or squatting are the things to do to develop the strength and balance to stabilize the upper torso.

Off hand stuff uses a lot of forearm and wrist strength too and it sure wouldn't hurt to get a bit stronger there in order to pull the rifle into the shoulder and maintain stability under the forend with the non firing arm.

Strength training is great stuff and will help a lot. It needs to be done at the right time in a training program though. Most sports emphasize strength training for the first third of the training cycle in a year, then slowly transition into the sport specific skills while sustaining strength gains. A person new to strength training best start it well before the competitive shooting season or they will really have problems. I also recommend they find a very good strength coach and learn how to do these exercises from a professional. And I do mean a professional. Not some 'personal trainer' working at the local fitness place.

Anyway -- those are my most likely solutions for the problems you mentioned. Yes, I am pretty convinced they would work just fine.

Scipio

 

[Scipio]

Gus:

Two things are key. First is 1975 and second -- hunting rifle. Even hunting rifles have come a long way since then and I don't know of many guys who hunt at 600 to 1000 yards, where any sort of 'cold bore' shift in zero may mean enough of a change that the shot may go outside a kill zone.

I do believe the first shot out of a clean barrel may be a problem but only if the barrel is lousy and or the distance is pretty far. Run a dry patch through the barrel to get rid of any solvents or oil will probably solve that problem. If not, firing one fowling shot surely will.

As for zero shifts due to the barrel getting hot, it can happen no doubt but guys who shoot that much ammo through a barrel that fast tend to get barrels that won't give them a zero shift when they get hot. Also, I believe barrel mirage caused by hot barrels causes way more problems than any sort of change in internal ballistics caused by said hot barrel. Not even if you let the round cook in a hot chamber for a while.

I spend a number of years behind guys shooting the M-24 SWS with marginally decent ammo. They kept cold bore data religiously. Looking at their data books in general, none showed a pattern that anyone would change a zero for. Why? Better metallurgy and more consistent ammo than even ten years earlier. More dependable and way better optics than the 70's. Other variables? Anyone's guess is as good as mine. Light conditions, number of Monster Energy drinks consumed, shooter fatigue or alertness, caring, not caring, too much or not enough Copenhagen. Too much PT, no chow. List can go on. Bottom line -- never saw one single 24 or team that I would absolutely say had a zero change due to the barrel being cold -- or clean for that matter. At least nothing that anyone would depend on to the point where they would put on or off elevation or windage. Some guys tried it but none had it down.

My only conclusion was that if it was happening, its effect was eliminated due to a bunch of other variables.

Scipio

 

[Scipio]

A2:

Another myth is bone to bone support. Stand up with your rifle and take a good standing position. Then tell me what bone is in contact with what bone.

I would say that your non firing tricep is in contact with your lat or your lat and pectorals. Even if you scoot your hip way out front, unless you have freakishly long upper arms, you won't come close to your elbow being supported by your hip bone. Women can shove their hips out far enough and are generally flexible enough but most men can't.

When the term 'muscling' is used in shooting, it means that you are forcing the rifle or pistol around to give you a sight picture instead of allowing your position to present you with a decent sight picture. Muscling isn't because your tricep is in contact with your lat.

Hunters tend to 'muscle' their rifles. Doesn't mean they miss, either. Just not the best thing for shot to shot consistency.

Scipio

 

[apachesx2]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/1e/f4/821ef4c5b6c6da2ca55fbd179c75505d.jpg

She has bone to bone contact. I have even done it hunting with an 06 hunting. Have dropped game at a full run brood side at 200 meters. In fact my German hunting test had 100 meter standing off hand running boar test. Prefer shooting sticks or a tree if available.

 

[apachesx2]

Also If you can't anchor it into your hip you can always anchor into the rib cage doesn't work as well but better than free willey....

 

[Scipio]

As I said, females are more able to get their hip out and pelvis angled up so as to support the elbow.

If you can get into that standing position, you are pretty unique.

And I read the caption for the photo. Note where they talk about muscles being needed to support the position.

Bottom line though. It is nothing that is worth a debate. Any more than data books, cold bore, clean bore, and a dozen other marksmanship related topics that may have started out meaning something in their day but have been rendered obsolete since then.

To me there is only one 'must do' thing to have a good shot. Have the barrel pointed at the proper place in the target when the shot is fired. You point it and you pull the trigger. If a shooter is satisfied with his performance -- go for it! I will never argue with success.

Could well be that my ideas were sound in their day but have been rendered obsolete by some new innovation or technique. Some things I trained guys to do have been rendered obsolete via the use of much better rifles, ammunition, optics and automation. No arguments from me.

Scipio

 

[apachesx2]

https://cdnolympic.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/nathan-smith.jpg?quality=100&w=660
https://images.nbcolympics.com/www...3_cc3b353e50_o.jpg?impolicy=960x540_rectangle


Here are men anchoring in the standing position seems common at high level events.

 

[necchi]

Here are men anchoring in the standing position seems common at high level events.

Your right,, but those are trained and disciplined athletes that are in or finishing a marathon. If you want to get into the detail of that aspect of training(?) That hold is about breathing,, and they're not breathing normally at that point.

 

[apachesx2]

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/mattpdf1401op.png

Non-marthon male shooter... Yes breathing and natural point of aim is a big part of it as well...

 

[Cowboy]

I think the key is in your title “ Practice! “
Practice and then more practice!! I pretty much shoot off hand exclusively. Wether it’s at the range or woodswalk competition, for me to preform well, it’s all in the time spent for preparation to compete well.

The follow through that you mentioned is indeed a key component for sure. Consistentcy is paramount as well! Learn the basics and practice. If not preforming up to expectations don’t change up right away. Just keep at it and keep on keeping on. Don’t overthink every little detail! Time spent in preparation and practice will eventually pay off!

Lastly, for me personally, I never leave the range on a miss or a bad shot! Always a positive ending note to end the practice session.

Before ya know it you’ll be cutting playing cards in half or splitting balls on axe head blades!

Have fun most importantly!!

God Bless my friend and practice!

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Artificer]

Scipio,

I'm going to leave the discussion of modern rifles and ammo for another forum except to say that I was the Shop Chief of the RTE Shop at Quantico until Sept 1997 when I retired and we were the ones chosen to do the scientific testing of the then new LR ammo with pressure test barrels, computers and other scientific test equipment provided us to do that testing by a government arsenal. My last trip to the Nationals at Camp Perry as a gunsmith was 2005, but I still keep current with a fair number of Distinguished Riflemen.

Now back to muzzle loaders.

In some hunting conditions one can fire a fouling shot, but not always. Then it is best to know exactly where the first shot out of a clean/cold barrel will go at the ranges one will actually hunt AND in the environmental conditions of the day of the hunt.

I have seen this time and again at matches involving both rifles and smoothbores at local competitions, the Nationals at Friendship, many years of the North South Skirmish Association Spring and Fall National Shoots and two World Championships of the International Muzzle Loading Committee. Different environment conditions matter a lot when shooting ML guns.

The shooters who can put that first round where it is supposed to go from a clean/cold barrel AND in whatever climate condition they have on that day - will usually win the match or even more importantly for hunting, that is often the only shot one gets.

If one limits their shots to only 25 yards, then much of what I have mentioned is moot, unless one is good enough to be in the higher/highest levels of competition. Going to 50 yards things begin to get interesting. At 75 to 100 yards these things become important.

Many, if not most people can not shoot as well in matches or hunting, as they do in practice. This is not just my experience, but a common truism in the shooting world. This is why I don't buy the theory if one can keep their balls BARELY inside the killing zone at a certain range in practice, that they should use that distance as their maximum hunting range.

IMO, one should not go after medium to large game at any range where they can not hold at least HALF the size of the killing zone in practice, if not better accuracy than that. There are just too many additional things that come up in hunting, that will cause one to shoot far less accurately than on the target range.

Gus

 

[Scipio]

A2:

I have been competing in winter biathlon for about six years now.

Those guys sure do get into that hip forward position, just like the women.

They spent a whole lot of time and effort to develop that sort of off hand position. Also, their rifle designs are better for that position than others, including rifles used in HP and ML's.

Don't quote me but I think the French guy who won a bunch of Golds last winter holds a bit over 90% standing in competition which in Biathlon is pretty miraculous. 50 meters and the standing target size is about eight minutes. Probably the 8 ring for a standing ML target at 100.

I never said such a position is impossible for a male to achieve. A number of the guys that are competitive in that sport with me easily get into that hip forward position. I can't, but it doesn't mean I don't shoot as well or sometimes better in the standing position.

I assure you that people find a work around for everything if they care enough.

Scipio

 

[Scipio]

Gus:

I read some of the test reports you guys did on the 118 LR. Even got a chance to spend a day at your place in Quantico and got shown around. Can't remember the name of the OIC -- the same guy who served with Hathcock in Vietnam. Bulldog looking fellow. Talked with him for a while, got a brief on the types of training done there, and paid a visit to your shop. Was in 1989 I believe.

Am sure that with a ML a clean bore shot will impact at a different spot than follow on shots. The question is how much. Since you have witnessed this let me ask --- normally how much and in what direction? It isn't a leading question and I am not after an argument. Just want to know.

BTW -- don't guys get sighters or the opportunity to shoot fowlers at those ML matches?

We disagree on many things but that is to be expected. One thing we won't disagree on is your take on the risks guys should not accept when hunting.

Scipio

 

[Tom Compton]

Back to practice””””when I can’t get tothe range or if conditions don’t allow I practice w a pellet rifle (650 FPS) and pistol.

Sight picture, heart beat, breathing , trigger control and follow through.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Back to practice””””when I can’t get tothe range or if conditions don’t allow I practice w a pellet rifle (650 FPS) and pistol.

Sight picture, heart beat, breathing , trigger control and follow through.

I do as well. And I believe it helps a great deal.

I have a heavy break-action pellet rifle with the WORST trigger ever. Long and heavy. It doesn't even qualify as a poor two-stage as it NEVER breaks over. If I can hit offhand with that I can manage any trigger.

 

[Artificer]

Scipio

In 1989 a rather bulldog looking Officer who had served with Carlos sounds like the Bn XO, Major Dick Culver. The OIC of the shop was a great Officer, but he had not served with Carlos in the Nam. I got transferred to CA in 1988, then Okinawa for a year, then three years at Camp Pendleton. I didn't return to Quantico as the Shop Chief until November 1994.

In some muzzle loading competitions they do allow a fouling shot, but not all of them. I can't remember if they allowed a fouling shot at the two World Championships in the UK that I attended as the U.S. Team Armourer, but many of the targets were 18 shots and they scored the top 15 shots only.

I really can't give an "average" amount that the rifles and smoothbores would shoot "off" at different times and weather conditions of the year, as I have been involved with shooting competitions that ranged from comparatively light barreled percussion small caliber Original and Reproduction rifles up to Original and Repro Minie' Rifles/Rifled Muskets and .69 and .75 cal. Original and Repro Flint Muskets.

When we had the tryouts for the International Team in Eastern PA one year, the folks from around Washington (State) reported significant changes in their POI, even though the weather was somewhat similar to back home.

NSSA shooters from all over the Eastern to Midwest part of the country reported differences when they came to Ft. Shenandoah to shoot at the Spring and Fall Championships, though the greatest differences were from the Spring when it could be cool to warm and sometimes hot to the Fall shoots were it went from being cool to downright miserably rainy and or very cold. A couple times (or more) it snowed during the Fall shoot even though it was shot in late September/Early October and that's when POI's changed drastically from Spring and especially Summer Skirmishing.

When I was stationed in Indiana during the mid/late 70's, most of the local competition I shot in was around Fort Wayne. That is in the Northern Part of the Middle of the State. However, when we shot even the next weekend down in Friendship in the lower third of the state, the heavy humidity caused us to have to hold off up to 2 to 4 inches at times (25 and 50 yards respectively) and that was only one week later than the last shoot at Fort Wayne. Because Indiana can get really cold in the Winter with lots of snow, some folks experienced POI changes of 4 inches or more at 50 yards during the winter.

These are only a few examples of why I caution about knowing where the first round will go at different times of the year and in different environmental conditions.

Gus

 

[Scipio]

Gus:

Culver could have been the fellow. The name 'Willis' or something like that comes up too for some reason. Had a great time there and it was really an education on the differences in individual weapons training and doctrine between the USMC and Army. You guys had quite the machine shop there too.

As for zeros at different firing ranges -- a real good reason to keep records is right there. I experience elevation and sometimes a windage change going between ranges that are within miles of each other. And those differences are very consistent throughout a shooting season.

Have asked the top end guys why and even they didn't know. Only that at that range they had to use a different elevation and sometimes windage.

I don't think it is temperature because during a match the barrel, powder, and air temp normally changes pretty radically and there isn't a corresponding change in elevation. I am ready to bet such changes in zero are due to lighting conditions and how they affect sight picture more than air or powder temp. And I look at mirage from the ground and off a barrel as something that affects sight picture.

I last shot a ML comp was in the mid 80's but I do remember that with that specific rifle, I used a favor low for my first shot if the barrel was clean. Once it got fowled, no change in elevation hold for any string. And that was in south GA during the summer. Brutally hot.

Once I am sure that I won't start a gigantic forest fire here, I will be able to ring out the Jeager I just bought. This time around, I made sure I got something that was balanced, has a higher end barrel, and a stock that actually fits me. Sights? Not so great due to age related vision problems. Really need a tang rear and a hooded front.

I am a big one on hearing other's lessons learned and appreciate your time and comments.

Scipio

 

[FishDFly]

"In my opinion reading about how to shoot is pretty much useless. If you understand what you're reading then you already know it. If not, then you have not learned it yet."

Folks learn by 7 different ways, reading is one of them, in a previous life I was an industrial trainer.

I increased my BP pistol scores by reading a book on Bulls Eye pistol shooting, the teachings there apply to BP pistol shooting.

I have read all the posts here and one thing that has not been mentioned is "dry firing". All the top pistol and rifle shooters I know dry fire and some do it every day.

Set your trigger, pick up the rifle, aim at a light switch in your house, concentrate on your sights and pull the trigger. Watch for movement in the sights when the trigger breaks.

Put the rifle down and repeat. Do this for 10 minutes each day and your offhand shooting will improve. You are becoming more familiar with it by handling the rifle and improving your muscle tone by picking up the rifle.

You will not wear out the set trigger by dry firing as some think.

I shoot 2 air pistol targets each morning after eating breakfast and dry fire each evening during the commercials while watching the news.

As CC mentioned it's all about practice, dry firing is practice and you do not have to leave home to do it.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I'll concede because, I agree with everything you just said.... :thumbsup:

 

[Tom Compton]

Doing a little shooting today w the .54 flinter. Wasn’t doing well so started an old practice. Load and walk to the line, w frizzen open and cock down dry fire 2-3 times then prime and shoot. Looking better. Sometimes at home I put a piece of soft wood in the jaws and dry fire in the garage