zouave rifles

[bigted]

I am trying to collect info on these rifles and as I do search on the net ... I find the name "Zouave" to describe a French army unit so named but no reference to the rifle being so named.

is this simply a 1861 springfield that these fellers used in this French unit or have I missed something?

the rifle resembles the 1861 thru 1864 Remington rifles a lot and so I wonder where in history these rifles came into their own and getting hung with the Zouave name.

anyone shed some light on this subject and where in the world they [the rifles] served time as well as if they were used in the US history and being referred to as the "Zouave rifle.

if this needs to be moved then I understand and still post the question. thanks for your info.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

It was the Remington which became called the Zouave. After the gaudy colorful uniforms that mimicked the French uniforms. I understand that they arrived so late in the game that many were not issued before the end of the war. For that reason, a higher percentage of the few made survived in good condition. Very rugged and strong in a day when the average soldier did not take particularly good care of their muskets.

In my view it was sort of outdated by the time it arrived. Breach loaders were the wonder weapon of the day and the muzzleloading work horse muskets were soon on the way out.

I have had two repros. The Zoli was my favorite percussion rifle. But I could never get it to shoot minnies worth a hoot. It did however do a magnificent job with patched round balls and moderate loads

 

[Grumpa]

The Zouave rifles were manufactured by Remington. They were shorter two band models, equipped with a long, Yahtagan sword bayonet ( based on a Turkish sword). They had bright brass trim.

Supposedly, the shorter, lighter rifle coupled with the longer bayonet, was a combination that made for better control in bayonet fighting.

The Zouave units initially wore exotic uniforms ( fez, baggy white pantaloons, tight fitting jackets, 10 foot sashes) inspired by French units in North Africa. Costly to make, they were soon replaced by standard uniforms. This occurred before the Zouave rifles were delivered.

10,001 rifles were delivered between April, 1863 and January, 1864. A large number of them probably never saw combat, and ended up sold as surplus, bored smooth, for Africa and South America.

 

[Artificer]

Prior to the UnCivil War, some rather well heeled militia units in both the North and South adopted the French Zouave Uniform as a very showy/splendiferous looking uniform. These units were often more "Social Clubs" than anything else, so a very showy uniform impressed the Ladies and other Folk. (At the Battle of First Manassas aka First Bull Run, some Southron Units had Blue Uniforms and some Northern Units had Cadet Gray Uniforms, some were other colors including white and some even had uniforms with Tri Corn Hats and looked like something from the Revolution.)

Perhaps the most celebrated Zouave Unit was the 5th NY Zouaves: http://www.zouave.org/


There is an old Rumour/Myth that some of the M1863 Remington Rifles had been issued to a Federal Zouave unit, but there is no documentation for it.

I think I remember Val Forgett, Jr. of Navy Arms stating he used the term "Zouave" as a description for an advertising gimmick when he first began importing repro's of this rifle, though he may also have believed the myth above - however I don't know for sure about the latter.

Gus

 

[hawkeye2]

Search using this and you will find what you are looking for:

1863 Remington contract rifle

I won't go into any details about the Zouave as you can read it all yourself after your search.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Nearly any original photo, or modern painting based on an original, will show Zouaves on both sides generally armed with M.1841 rifles. Since the Remington was a late-comer and there's no real known number on how many actually were issued, the Zouaves went with the only rifle available then with a big, shiny, patch box.

 

[bob308]

the model 1863 Remington were issued for combat. in fact in Walter Cline's book there is a list of captured rifles and the Remington is listed. so that means they were issued captured then recaptured. there have been 63 Remington parts dug up at some sites in the south. so yes they were used. just not by zouave troops.

I talked to Val Forget one time and asked him why he used the name zouave. he said marketing.

 

[Artificer]

the model 1863 Remington were issued for combat. in fact in Walter Cline's book there is a list of captured rifles and the Remington is listed. so that means they were issued captured then recaptured. there have been 63 Remington parts dug up at some sites in the south. so yes they were used. just not by zouave troops.

I talked to Val Forget one time and asked him why he used the name zouave. he said marketing.

With respect, captured does not mean they were issued. IOW, some were probably sent to the front lines in a supply replacement of an emergency or critical issue, but captured before they were issued. (This because the Remington M1863 was not considered the first choice of rifle musket to issue, after it was manufactured. 3 Band Muskets normally would have been sent, if they were on hand.) The only Unit/Troops the M1863 Remingtons were known to be issued to were The Invalid Corps/Veteran Reserve Corps around Washington, DC. This from research at the National Archives by a Civil War Historian who worked there. However, it is a remote possibility that Jubal Early captured some of these rifles from Invalid Corps Members during Early's Raid on D.C. in July 1864 - though that is not documented.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Here is the Zouave US Model 1863 rifle as made by Pedersoli. You can look at the other Civil War rifles they offer to note the differences between the models.

LD

 

[bob308]

I am going by hard facts you are using supposition. I have even seen pictures of the 63 Remington in the hands of troops. no I don't have them here but I do know they were mislabeled in the pictures.

 

[Artificer]

I am going by hard facts you are using supposition. I have even seen pictures of the 63 Remington in the hands of troops. no I don't have them here but I do know they were mislabeled in the pictures.

With respect, the hard fact is M1863 Remington Rifles were never listed as being officially issued to any troops outside the Invalid Corps - this from The National Archives and other records. Now IF someone can find documentation that shows otherwise, then it would change this hard fact as we know it. Until then, it is only speculation that these rifles were issued to other troops, when no solid proof has been shown.

Now the following is informed speculation. It is therefore quite possible that some or even many daguerreotypes exist of those soldiers who were issued the rifles, since they were stationed in D.C. and had easy access to having daguerreotypes made there. Also, such daguerreotypes may show the soldiers in the OLD uniforms they were issued before being transferred to the Invalid Corps; until such time as they received the replacement Official Invalid Corps Uniform.

More Hard Facts on the Invalid Corps who were issued M1863 Remingtons. General Order 63 created the Invalid Corps on 22 March 1863 (The SAME month the M1863 Remingtons were first being delivered to the Federal Government). The first contract for the Unique Invalid Corps Uniform Jacket was not let until June 5, 1863 and that was for 2,500 Jackets. So until those NEW jackets were received, the Invalid Corps Soldiers wore their old Army Uniforms or replacement regular Army uniforms. So this was plenty of time for The Invalid Corps Soldiers who had been issued M1863 Remingtons to have daguerreotypes taken in their Old or Standard Army Uniforms, when in fact they were in the Invalid Corps with these rifles.

So just because a or some daguerreotypes are found with the soldiers having these rifles in their hands, one still has to be careful to correctly identify the Soldiers as to what unit they belonged to when the daguerreotype/s were taken.

Further and this is another hard fact, daguerreotypes must also be examined to see if the arms the Soldier/s have in their hands are not “stage props” supplied by the studio ”“ as we know a large number of such arms were supplied when the daguerreotypes were taken by both Northern and Southron studios.

Gus

 

[tenngun]

Many of these informal Zouave clubs were 'fire companies' and called them selfs "Fire Zouaves". They didn't work so much to put out the fire but to salvage the stuff inside and prevent it spreading to other homes. The chance to abuse this was high. Insurance fraud was common as was the protection racket, and the burning of a home in order to 'salvage its goods. Sort of land based wreckers.

 

[bigted]

interesting all ... I own a [older] CVA model that is so marked on the barrel as an "1863 Zouave"

its bore is wavey and large for a '58'. it shoots .570 balls patched with my .021 work shirt {cotton} patching and does pretty good at 25 yds with a 80 grain charge of OL E 2Fg powder. yet the nipple has a hole in it that I could throw the neighbors cat thru and is a fire breathin demon but shoots very well with NO miss fires.

been thinkin on shortening it down to a "musketoon" length rifle for playin with and maybe huntin but didn't want to cut down a historically sound rifle even tho it is an aftermarket rifle.

don't think it is of any particular value ... only to the owner and as a shootin rifle that brings a smile to my face every time I yank on the trigger.

 

[Zonie]

If you want to shoot your CVA buy a replacement nipple to replace the worn out one.

These Italian repro Rifled Muskets usually use a M8-1.25 thread nipple.

New nipples with this thread are available for both the "Musket size" caps or for #11 caps.

As "Musket Caps" are often hard to find you might want to think about changing it to a #11 cap size.

The only catch is #11 caps don't make as much fire when they go off so using "Magnum" or RWS caps might be needed to get reliable ignition.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/807/1

 

[bigted]

thanks for the heads up on the thread size. I do shoot it on occasion but it makes me nervous what with the spitting fire round the inside of the cap. more then once I have grabbed hold of the spent cap after shooting it and branded myself on either the first finger or thumb pad where it takes a long time before you forget what happened to the finger/thumb.

it seems to shoot pretty good even with the wavey insides of the barrel. shoots those .570 PRB's like a champ ... haven't gotten out to try my pure lead Minnie's yet.

it is a great comfort to handle what with all the large parts to include the wrist area. all in all it is a pleasant rifle to shoot and mess with ... partly because I only have a 400 dollar bill in the whole thing including shipping to my home.

 

[bob308]

ok I have done some reading and if you look you will see almost 1/3 of the rifles used were two band rifles. not saying they were 63 Remington's. but who is to say that after 63 is a unit needed some replacement 2 band rifles some Remington's were not sent? even dug up parts from some battlefields have been identified as being 63 Remington.

this all rifles were 3 band is just renactors trying to rewrite history.

 

[Zonie]

When you say folks are trying to rewrite history, here's a few numbers for you to think about.

Using Flayderman's Guide and looking mainly at the Primary Military guns made or used during the CW, I find these totals. (They are less than the actual numbers because I dropped numbers under 1000.)

Springfield 1861 Rifled Musket, 3 band = 1,065,000 produced. (This includes contract guns).

Springfield 1863 Rifled Musket, 3 band = 528,000

1842 US Percussion Musket, 3 band = 275,000

1841 Percussion Rifle, 2 band = 25,296

1847 US Cavalry Musketoon, 2 band = 5,800

1855 Percussion Rifle, 2 band = 8,700

1863 Remington Zouave, 2 band = 12,501

Adding all of these 2 band guns together I get 43,597.

I admit these numbers don't include the Confederacy's guns and it doesn't include the Enfields that were both 2 band and 3 band guns but anyway I look at it even 100,000 2 band guns doesn't come close to over one and three quarter million 3 band guns (1,868,000).

 

[Artificer]

ok I have done some reading and if you look you will see almost 1/3 of the rifles used were two band rifles. not saying they were 63 Remington's. but who is to say that after 63 is a unit needed some replacement 2 band rifles some Remington's were not sent? even dug up parts from some battlefields have been identified as being 63 Remington.

this all rifles were 3 band is just renactors trying to rewrite history.

With respect, I don't know any learned reenactors who have ever suggested any such thing. Reenactors generally prefer 3 band guns for a safety factor when firing in ranks AND because almost no modern reenactor is trained and drilled nearly as much as soldiers were back in the day. Also for Reenactors, there is the historic fact that outside the Invalid Corps and perhaps the Soldiers in the Ring of Forts around Washington, DC, there is NO documentation that the Remington M1863 Rifles were ever issued. (Please Note: Reenactors don’t say OTHER short “Rifles” were not issued, as there are records of other units being issued DIFFERENT arms that were shorter than 3 Band Muskets.) I also wish to state for the second time that IF and WHEN documentation does come to light that the Remington Rifles were issued to other Units, then that will be most informative and a “game changer.” However, until that time, it is only speculation that such arms were ever issued outside what has been documented.

Of COURSE, shorter barreled rifle muskets were used in the war, but in far lesser numbers/percentage of guns issued than your research has led you to believe. Tip of the hat to Zonie on this. When we say 3 band guns were PREFERRED for the Infantry in the War, that does not mean that at times short barreled guns were not issued in emergency issues instead of longer barreled guns, when longer barreled guns were not available - but so far such documentation has been short barreled arms OTHER than Remington M1863 rifles.

In an earlier thread, SATX mentioned there were pieces of the M1863 Remington Rifles excavated from Fort Fisher and his speculation is those guns were actually sold to the South or to Unscrupulous Northern Arms dealers who sold them to the South. This is another way such rifles could have wound up as battlefield relics today, besides the other ways already mentioned.

Gus

 

[hawkeye2]

Something that hasn't been brought up in this discussion yet is that the 1863 Remington was a rifle. The 1841 Mississippi was a rifle and there was a rifle variation of the 1855 model. A Rifle had a 33" barrel of heavy wall construction secured by 2 bands and had a patchbox. Three banders were rifle-muskets and were the preferred arm for infantry. Generally rifles were not issued to infantry units. Rifles should not be confused with 2 band Enfields or cut down rifle-muskets, they are a different animal entirely.

 

[Trot]

I keep hearing about 1863 Remington parts being dug, and photos of rifles in use. Does anyone have any links to these pictures or any documentation? I have always had an interest in these rifles and have heard stories, but never seen any of the proof.