well, getting back into it....

[54MAN]

Well its been awhile, I used to be on the forum alot but ended up leaving because I sold my muzzys...I had 3, a cva deerhunter, a cabelas pedersoil frontier rifle and a lyman. I had accuracy issues with all of them and in a last ditch effort mounted a scope on the deerhunter and to my dismay still couldnt group it with any powder combo or patch or conical....

SO I sold all of them... BUT ive never lost complete interest and feel like giving it another go...but this time I want to try a flint lock rifle... I have a very basic knowledge about flinters but before i buy im looking for a rifle recommendation... I dont want to spend a boat load incase it turns out to be an excorsize in frustration...so looking to spend between 3-500... whats the best one I can get for that amount? how are the triggers?

Ive gotten spoiled by some of my other accuracy builds with amazing triggers so ive gotten lazy and dont like to wrestle with heavy ones ha ha... also DONT REALLY want a longgggg barrel...I love the way they look but WOW the frontier rifle had a 39 inch barrel and it was a PAIN to clean... but I digress... well lets hear it... best for the price range...

 

[Rusty_Nail]

...I had 3, a cva deerhunter, a cabelas pedersoil frontier rifle and a lyman. I had accuracy issues with all of them...

Accuracy issues with all of them? Did you ever work up a load for any of them? Shooting patched round ball? Or just conical bullits?

Try a patch and ball combo. Start at the low end of what the manual says, and increase at 5gr. increments. 3 shots each increment. Keep going to the high end. You might find an accurate load somewhere in there for a 50 yard shot! If not, try a different patch with the best load you did get. Might be in that combo! :thumbsup:

I had a Frontier and have a Hatfield, and to me they are quite accurate!

A probably stupid way I look at it is like dirt bikes. Somewhere between idle and full out is a band that runs hot. In muzzleloaders, it is a load somewhere in the middle of what is stated in the manual as min. and max. :grin:

 

[54MAN]

yes yes and yes... I reload my ammo for other rifles and regularly get sub moa groups with most of them... Im in no way shape or form "new" to shooting so its not my abilities that lack (but am constantly trying to improve regardless :thumbsup: ) thats why i was so frustrated... worked with different loads, diff patches diff diameter balls and then even conicals... could get any of them to group consistently... 50 yards would yield 4-6 inch groups... I would have 2 touching...and then the rest just everywhere... tried swabbing every shot...every 2 shots... would always leave the range POed lol i even tried pre weighing loads before I went to the range incase of inconstant measures in the lil powder measure deal... the cva was cutting patches... but even with that it would barely hold a 6 group at 50... tried conicals and a scope with that one next anddddddd same manure.. after a few months it got cleaned and soaked in oil and went to the back of the closet

the frontier rifle was the best actually... generally could keep shots in a 8 in circle at 100 yards which was better then the others but not great at all in the grand scheme of things...the lyman I even went and bought the peep sight set up for it... just couldnt get consistency... like incredible fliers that would be wayyyyy off for no reason (well had to be something but I couldnt figure it out) even had a friend go with me...i would load... make sure I did everything the same.... and he would shoot...and the same would happen..terrible fliers...BUT ANYHOW....

 

[Rusty_Nail]

My eyes aren't the best, so I would probably be happy hitting an 8" target at 100 yards! :grin:

 

[jdkerstetter]

The odds of buying three muzzleloaders and all of them being inaccurate are all but immeasurable.

So, perhaps you do need to reevaluate either your expectations or your load developement technique before you end up frustrated with the next one and give up entirely.

:2 Enjoy, J.D.

 

[54ball]

Muzzleloaders are primitive weapons. If you can shoot a flintlock accurately you can shoot anything accurately. With that said, if you shoot centerfire accurately you may not be able to shoot a flintlock or any muzzleloader accurately, at least at first.

The scope of explaining why is way beyond what I can post. Part of it is faith. It's a similar but different skill set. To quote a old Korean phrase, "Same Same but different". You can have the best rifle made but when you pull the trigger and you do not believe in the shot, it will be a poor shot.

You have to be in love with the arm and the craft of shooting that arm. If you are looking for cloverleaf groups off a rest, stick to centerfire. If you are looking to learn a lost skill that will help you in your centerfire shooting and provide excellent accuracy off hand once you develop the skill then proceed.

The most accurate firearm I've ever touched in it's range was a flintlock .45 caliber long rifle with a 38" barrel. I believed in it. But that skill did not develop overnight.

Honestly for what you want, you need to triple that price range. A basic parts set is 700 to 1000 dollars so finished rifles of quality components are a lot more. You may can find used but you need to know what to look for. Nothing is more frustrating than a poorly built flintlock.

It's kind of sad but the quality of factory built flinlocks and all factory built muzzleloaders for that matter, has gone down while the prices have risen. The serious shooters have gone to custom and semi custom or treasuring/hoarding their old factory built guns.

 

[54MAN]

thanx for the feed back... a couple quick searches is showing im not allowing enough funds for a great rifle.... but i want to stick to that price range anyhow to keep the wife happy.... I am willing to work (which is why im coming back again) like the idea of the extra challenge of the flint and also will have the luxury of focusing on 1 rifle and not 3 at once...

I have offer of a cabelas hawken 54 cal flint for 325... whats the feed back on these rifles? I already understand it wont be anywhere near the best but do they seem to at least work pretty good overall?

 

[AZbpBurner]

That Cabelas Hawken may be an Investarms, if older, or a Pedersoli, if newer. Both are capable rifles. Triggers are adjustable, and are what you make of them.

You may want to reconsider, though, since you were dissatisfied enough with a buncha perfectly good caplock rifles to go sell them all, you may just plain not have what it takes to properly run a flintlock.

 

[54MAN]

I have a strong tendency to not believe in the word cant, and even though it seems hard to believe I had issues with 3 different rifles that was not shooter related problems is not completely indicative of the core issue seeing how you weren't there to examine personally.

I have purchased 3 diff firearms NEW in my life time so far that were faulty to the point of not functioning and had to be sent back for repairs before firing a single shot.. the odds of that happening? I just had a friend bring a brand new 870 (one of the nicer magnum camo versions) and it didn't function...I looked it over and the chamber was cut way to short... wouldn't allow extraction.. so I dont completely blame myself for all firearm related issues.

your feed back on the rifle in question is appreciated however.

 

[54ball]

I had 3, a cva deerhunter, a cabelas pedersoil frontier rifle and a lyman. I had accuracy issues with all of them and in a last ditch effort mounted a scope on the deerhunter and to my dismay still couldnt group it with any powder combo or patch or conical....

There are many threads on developing a load. One thing though, some conicals, especially the plastic sabot bullets will not stabilize through a traditional muzzleloader with a traditional twist rate. Two may hit close together the third may not hit paper. I've been there done that when I was ignorant on the subject.

I have offer of a cabelas hawken 54 cal flint for 325... whats the feed back on these rifles?

IMHO it would have to be in like new condition for that price.
Those are clones of the Thompson Center Hawken. They are really good guns. The flintlocks may be of OK quality. There not quite the gamble like CVA/Traditions are.

Any new flintlock takes a break in period to function well. I think this goes for the shooter as much as the rifle.

As far as your load keep it simple. Patched round ball and black powder.

 

[Roguedog]

54Man,
I love your attitude. I kind of share that view as well. I will say that I bought a second hand Lyman GPR and have made a few adjustments. I modified the lock to have the flint sit higher so as to better strike the frizzen. I replaced the vent liner with an aftermarket RMC. Now the gun fires relatively quickly. I guess my point is that sometimes you can get a production gun and make it shoot quite well. It just takes a little time and effort and experimentation. Also, most every gun I've ever had did have a sweet spot where it shot very well. Sometimes, depending on the weapon, that sweet spot can be hard to find. I'm glad your getting back into the primitive game and I know you will find it rewarding.

Jeff

 

[Billnpatti]

I am a firm believer in Dutch Schoultz' Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System. I have a copy and read it often. It is packed with info on how to make your rifle a tack driver. Clear, concise step by step instructions. Each step very clear and very specific. Do this for me, Click on this: www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com Then send him the $20. It will be the best $20 you will ever spend on muzzleloading and unlike anything else you may spend money on, his information will last the rest of your life. If, after reading the information that you receive and doing exactly what it says, that doesn't solve your problem, just give Dutch a call at the number that comes in the packet and he will personally talk you through the solution. You just can't beat that for only a $20 investment. :thumbsup:

Take a look here: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showcat.php/cat/9
There are some rifles in your price range. You may find just what you are looking for.

 

[MSW]

ayup - what Roguedog said ... you will have to tinker with it - -that's just the "nature of the animal"

having said that, (to paraphrase the little green fellow on TV) once rocks banged have you, forever will they dominate your range time ... there is an inescapable and inexplicable magic about flinters, and once you're bitten, they are very habit forming ...

you might 'luck into' a used Lyman GPR or Thompson Center 'Hawken' like rifle at that price (used), but I suspect that you may have to compromise on some exterior problems ... in all candor, a rifle for field use doesn't bother me if the stock is scratched or there's pitting on the outside of the barrel ... if the bore is clean and it functions properly and shoots well, I like it ... put bluntly, for your budget, you won't get 'pretty,' but you may well get a perfectly serviceable gun and you can burn a boatload of powder and have a great time doing so. By the way, i'd stick to patched round ball ... no real reason to tinker with conicals, plastic sabots, and a bunch of other pseudo centerfire stuff ... I never gained any significant advantage using the 'gizmo' stuff ... just drained my wallet all the faster ...


Don't know about the Cabelas; never owned one ... I bought a used TC Renegade many many years ago, and I wouldn't part with it under any circumstances ...

as regards the accuracy issue, I can offer two thoughts: first, many centerfire shooters have trouble transitioning into ML, because they're not used to the absolute necessity of a long and consistent 'follow through.' I could consistently hit an e- type (police silhouette) with an M-16 (yes, I date myself) at 350 meters offhand, but couldn't hold better that a foot at 75 meters with a flintlock ... it took me years to figure out that if I didn't hold on target until well after the smoke from the pan cleared, I was gonna miss the shot - then I had an "a ha" moment, and my groups tightened ... the second thought is that you should consider getting Dutch Schoultz' method, here's a link:
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

this will be the best twenty bucks you've spent in some time.

OK - that's the rant for this morning ...

just one guy's opinion ... free and no doubt well worth the price.

Make good smoke!

 

[54MAN]

Many thanx for the input so far... Im waiting for some pics of the 54 flint cabela hawken as its from a member of this forum who is offering it...If it looks good I think I may go with this rifle and learn to make it work well if it has issues from the start..

I need to buy the recomended book..Ive seen the title a few times when I was on the forum a year or so ago... If the cabela hawken doesnt work out then Ill have to bide my time and look for a used one as it does sound like the best fit for me currently.. look forward to getting one and starting with it soon..thanx again for input so far

 

[AZbpBurner]

You'll find that .54 cal is really easy to dial in an accurate load, and with a roundball, you won't need to load it hot to get great accuracy.

For my .54 Cabelas, 65-70 Gr. 2F works like a charm. I patch it tight with a .018 patch around a .530" RB.

 

[54MAN]

do you use real black powder? its my understanding that flints need real stuff like goex to reliably fire... seems hard to get...

 

[Roguedog]

It can be hard to get but worth the effort. Even with my percussion guns, I won't use anything but the real thing.

Jeff

 

[Carl Fowler III]

You can get a new muzzleloader in that price range at D&R Sports online....break the gun in with 200/300 shots then get the Dutch Schoultz method....follow this forum for advice and to ask questions and afore ye know it...ye will have arrived! :v

That breaking in period is both for you and the gun...learn what your gun likes and dislikes...get to know her personally! :wink:

 

[MSW]

do you use real black powder? its my understanding that flints need real stuff like goex to reliably fire... seems hard to get...

yes, flintlocks don't work well (if at all) with 'substitute' powders.

I tried using one of the 'subs' (I think it was pyrodex, but I can't really remember) a long time ago ... must have been Pyrodex, 'cause I still had all my hair and I didn't suffer CRS (can't remember s...) ... well subs don't work at all well ... they ignite at a much higher temp than black powder ...

for reliable ignition, you need 'real' black powder ... Goex is fine with me, although there are other perfectly good powders out there ... goex is made in the US, and is pretty much the most commonly available ...

now the bad news:

Black Powder is classified as an explosive by the BATFE. Technically it is ... the stuff was used for blasting in the mining industry for many centuries before the invention of nitro and tnt. As an explosive, you need all manner of nanny- state permits and regulations and in our post 9/11 mentality, selling explosives to a civilian leaves most merchants with a 'why take the risk' feeling in the pit of their collective gut. Obviously, you can't send it through the mail. You have to pay a HazMat fee to ship it via UPS or FedEx, and you need a BATFE permit to sell it, which requires a bunch of storage facilities and more inspections and so on ... a pain in the neck for merchants ... yet more disincentive to carry it ...

Pyrodex, Triple 7, and other 'subs' are classed as propellants, so you don't have all the attendant fall-dee-rall and merchants carry them on the store shelves next to the other shooting stuff (although behind the counter, of course).

the 'bottom line:' if there's not a strong demand for black powder, you will have trouble getting it locally, and you may have to resort to buying it from Track or one of the other suppliers who will ship. Many (but not all) have a minimum order, and you have to pay a HazMat fee- -even if it's just one can, so if you're in this situation, you may as well buy a bunch ... it seems pretty silly to pay twenty-five bucks for a can of powder and twenty-five more bucks for the HazMat, and then shipping and mandling on top of that ... jeez! what's the government trying to do, make it impossible to get the stuff!?

Additionally, if you don't have the proper permits, and you sell the stuff, you're technically in violation of Federal Law. Suffice it to say that I hold the Dept of "Justice" in very low regard, and I have seen them miscarry justice simply to get another conviction ... these scum don't care a whit about justice, injustice, or the fair or equitable application of the law - all they want is a high conviction rate and they don't really care how they get it, so stay off their radar (if such is possible in the digital age) ...

OK that's the rant ... sorry to get all political ...

using real black powder,

make good smoke!

 

[Roguedog]

Funny, I thought I was the only one who felt that way about our "injustice" dept. Oh well, like you said, use real blackpowder.

Jeff