(Update) What do these patches mean?

[Oregononeshot]

OK I got out again today so for those who helped in my last post here are the results today. First I changed my blade on my patch knife.
My first 5 shots were with a .530 ball and the same 1:5 patch. The recovered patches are similar to the ones I recovered using the .535 balls.
The next 5 were using a 530 ball and the same 1:8 patching. I only was able to recover 2 patches that I can say with certainty were from the 1:8 ratio. These 2 showed the same results as when I was using the .535 ball.
The last 5 were using a 535 ball with a 1:7 patch.

A couple notes and observations : the 1:7 ratio was the tightest group of the day. Since even when using the .530 ball the patch still tore, that leads me to believe the 1:8 lube is to dry.

When I was using the 1:7 patch, it has been almost a year since I made them, and the bag has been open since mid October, so it's possible they dried out a bit. The .535 ball I was using with the 1:7 patch was Speer, which I haven't shot before. They required considerable more force to load then the Hornady .535, I almost couldn't get them by hand, leading me to believe the slight tearing on 2 of the patches could of been caused when short starting. From today's results I think I will focus my load development using 1:5-1:7 patches.

 

[Zonie]

Have you examined the edges of the rifling where it meets the crown in the muzzle?

Unless someone has removed the sharp corners that were left there by the factory, they will cut the patches when the patched ball is short started into the muzzle.

Dulling up these edges will not hurt accuracy at all. In fact, if they are dull, they can't cut the patch so the accuracy will be better.

If the edges on your gun are sharp you can easily dull them up by tearing a piece of 180 grit, wet/dry, black sandpaper into 1 inch squares.
Using your thumb to push one of these squares into the muzzle and rotating your hand back and forth while slowly rotating the gun, all of the sharp edges will be rounded off.
It doesn't hurt to do this several times. You might want to try using "the last piece" of sandpaper a little longer while your doing this. Much of the abrasive will be worn off and the little that is left will polish the area to a bright shine.

The only thing that is objectionable to some people is the raw look of the bare steel. If this is a problem with you, a application of Birchwood Casey Perma-Blue, cold gun bluing will make the reworked area look like it did before you started.

As for the tattered edges of the patch, don't worry about it.
That is what happens to cloth when its edges are blasted by a supersonic air blast as it leaves the muzzle.

 

[necchi]

Nice, it's really great to see your continuing the experiment.
Those 1:7 look great, just as they should. I don't want to lead you astray as you keep working the load because it does take each individuals personal little nuances to work the load for that person,
(I won't be able to care for each load for your rifle, like you do, even with the same gear)
,, but I've found 1:6-1:7 to be the optimal mixes for my rifles and load variables.
Keep up the good work!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Yep, polish crown and add more lube.

 

[necchi]

There are is crown or rifling cut issues with those patches at all. It's normal for there to be be some rifling marks,, the fabric is crushed on the rifling.
But that's not evident here. 1:8 is too dry,,

 

[Oregononeshot]

I haven't done anything to the barrel. Is the point of what your suggesting to smooth out the areas I have circled in red?

 

[necchi]

I don't see anything in the right circle.
But there is one little hinkey mark in the left side circle huh?
Don't file it or sand it just yet,, I'd scrape it off with a blade edge.

 

[Oregononeshot]

What I circled is the raised portions of the rifling (don't know the technical term). Are those what your referring to dull down?

 

[Grenadier1758]

The raised parts of the rifling are called the lands and depressed portions are called the grooves.

The edges of the rifling do look sharp. I recommend the crown treatment described earlier.

 

[shane a gress]

Lands and grooves. That is the correct terminology. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[shane a gress]

Lol. Grenadier can type faster than I can.

 

[necchi]

What I circled,,,

well, now that you know the definitions.
What we look for is minor deformations in the land/groove configuration at the "crown".
The "crown" is the very end of the lands and grooves as they leave the muzzle,, or the angle cut part, as your photo shows.
That angle cut is milled at a factory for some of these mass produced rilfes,, and sometimes it's not even or left un-cleaned.
The crown is very important. As expanding gases push the projectile out of the barrel,, the last thing is the end of the muzzle.(the crown)
It's important that the gases escape the muzzle around the projectile equally. If there is some sort of deformation at the crown,, those escaping gases can push harder on one side or the other against the projectile.
(get it?).
Or sometimes even the rifling can be left in a raw cut or jagged condition and damage patches as folks load and/or when the projectile is fired.
Fired patch condition can demonstrate those conditions.
Your patches,, do not show signs of rifling or crown issues.

 

[azmntman]

Twere it me, myself, I would go with the Zonie recommendation using sandpaper. And I would stick with 1-7 or even try 1-6, have you shot a group with 1-6?

What rifle is this?

 

[Stumpkiller]

OK. I have to ask. What do you mean with the 1-5 vs. 1-6 vs. 1-7 ratios?

 

[necchi]

The mix ratios that concern Dutch's papers

 

[Oregononeshot]

Thanks guys. I'll get some sandpaper and see about dulling down those lands. I have not yet tried a 1:6 patch, I have some made just haven't gotten to them yet. Gun is a .54 GPR

 

[Britsmoothy]

Definitely smooth the crown equally. No power tools! By hand, back and forth and rotate your self around the upright gun as you go to.

To be honest, I don't get all this ratio blah blah, my patches just get plastered in my lube and live in a tin, and I don't hammer nothing in a muzzle loader barrel!

 

[Grenadier1758]

Glad to have more than one verification.

OK. I have to ask. What do you mean with the 1-5 vs. 1-6 vs. 1-7 ratios?

Part of Dutch's system is the use of water soluble oil to lubricate patches. Presently Ballistol is oil of choice. He recommends letting the lubricated patches dry since only a small amount of lubricant is needed and Dutch tries to eliminate as much water from touching metal as possible. I think that using a good preservative oil after an alcohol or WD40 wipe get the water out.

In any case, the ratio is of one part water soluble oil to however many parts of water ultimately gives the tightest groups. I use 1 part of water soluble oil to 7 parts of water.

I use my mix of oil and water to dampen my patch as I load the ball. I like to know that I get one more pass after the damp swab.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Definitely smooth the crown equally. No power tools! By hand, back and forth and rotate your self around the upright gun as you go to.

To be honest, I don't get all this ratio blah blah, my patches just get plastered in my lube and live in a tin, and I don't hammer nothing in a muzzle loader barrel!

And just what kind of accuracy are getting hmm?

 

[Britsmoothy]

And just what kind of accuracy are getting hmm?

Do you mean what kind of accuracy am I getting?

I no longer have my rifle.
When I did I paid huge amount of attention to the fired patches.
Until I could see no day light through tiny holes and load them again I would be finding the issue. Mine and other friends back in the late eighties usually suffered from three common issues.
New barrel.
Sharp crown.
Too tight a ball and patch combo.
Not enough lube.

All my ball loads are started by the thumb and wooden rammer of the gun.

Never benched it but if I couldn't keep three balls under three inch at 100yds shot off hand I was not happy.
If we went to a range we would shoot clay pigeon targets all day off hand and I didn't swab the bore.
Use to see many a person struggling with thier muzzleloader at the range back then. They would be hammering the ball with store bought pre lubricated patches. It must of been an awful experience for them.

On a side note someone at work recently bought a Spanish made Kentucky rifle in 45 and they were keen to shoot it. Had an inspection and ran some patches down, felt good and the muzzle was all nicely radiused so I loaded it with a thumb started ball and a thickly greased patch. Dang thing at 40yds put three balls touching on heavy steel plate! I turned instant green with envy!