Trying to purchase a rifle and so many questions left unanswered.

[Johnny Tremain]

Save yer self time and money, if it has a brand name on it, you dont want it. Either made one, have it made, or buy one someone local made.

I owned a brand P, best 8 shots I ever got. Have had the same rifle since 05, and its just getting broke in.

 

[M. De Land]

I feel like this forum is in dire need of a FAQs sticky at the top. Lots of things are referenced but rarely explained in recent topics. I've done some searching for days and its just a lot of time consuming work to research.

1) Barrel Threading, 1:66, 1:48 etc twist, what effect does it have on performance?

2) What Twist rate is period accurate?

3) What is a swamped barrel, what effect does it have on performance?

4) Rice barrel is referenced a lot, is it a type of barrel or a brand?

5) What is the best type of lubricant for a rifled barrel between shots, many different answers, and some seem conflicting currently made a batch of about 50/50 olive oil beeswax.

6) Is a short barrel or long barrel better for newcomers.
6a, what effect do they have on range/accuracy

7) Is pedersoli a good brand of BP rifle?

8) What are common custom/semi custom vendors that are recommended.

9) Do custom vendor arms perform better, or is it a aesthetics thing?

10) What caliber is most accurate in a rifle usually?

______________________

I'm currently sitting on about $2500 and I really want a nice flintlock. Just because I have that much available doesn't mean I necessarily want to spend every dime of it either. It seems like everyone has conflicting opinions on a lot of things. I know a few things I would want is a double trigger, most likely a late 1700s period, decent sights, and no cheekpad for right handed/left handed (as I fire Ambi but favoring left). I've looked into Jim Kibler, but he only has double triggers on the SMR and its absolutely massive looking, and I'm a bit of a tall twiggy guy, I imagine it would be hard to sight.

PS: the only thing I have right now is a Blunderbuss from Veteran Arms, and I love the thing as kind of a shoulder cannon for fun, I have always wanted to practice shooting accurately with a rifle, as BP is insanely cheap to fire, I'm wanting a very nice accurate rifle.

.1 I have had guns in both twist rates and both shot balls equally well. If you shoot conicals you will need the 48 twist to stabilize them. Hawkens were said to have 48 twist rather often.
.2 Both
.3 A swamped barrel narrows on a taper from breech to about 2/3rds the length then tapers back out toward the muzzle. It makes a rifle balance better in offhand shooting and carry. I'm told you will not find many swamped barrels on the winners board at Friendship though.
.4 Rice has a very good reputation and I have friends that like and use them but I prefer Green Mtn as they are one of the few muzzle loading barrel makers that actually use gun barrel quality alloy steel 1114 instead of 12L14 (leaded steel) which machines wonderfully and seems to adequate for black powder pressure. This alloy does not have very good shock load resistance and is not considered by metallurgists to be barrel quality steel.
.5 I use winter grade windshield wiper fluid without peroxide. It contains water, liquid soap and alcohol, all good fouling de-solvers. I have to say for loading though spit patches work as good as anything else I've tried except in cold weather,they freeze.
.6 I'd stick with a barrel of about 28-30 inchs for a newby and as you get older you will find that it is a pretty good length for the whole gambit of half stock rifles. Full stock rifles usually need at least 36 inches to look balanced.
.7 I'd build one or have a custom made before buying a Pedersoli. They always seem to deviate from original designs a bit in they're reproductions in my opinion.
.8 KIbler is hard to beat.
9. Depends on who makes it but I've heard nothing but good things from Kibler guns.
10. They are equally accurate down to about .40 then the smaller calibers seem to be increasingly wind sensitive which makes them less accurate.

 

[Fly103]

Osseon,
No experience there, they look nice but if I was going to spend that kind of money I would build my own from a kit instead of buying a production gun. Included a pic of my Pennsylvania for ya.

Chris

 

[Davey Boy]

Your first mistake was saying $2500

Knock off a zero

Second mistake, you have not put in the time to learn about the subject

Now to correct the first two mistakes, pay attention to directions offered by people who offer up ideas for your educational experience

Spend a week or more reading new and old posts on this forum, find the muzzleloader group in your area and join it

 

[Sparkitoff]

I personally would not have a rifle built until I knew exactly what I wanted and how I wanted it. The cost is rarely recovered in the first few years if you sell. There are a lot of rifles out there that are pre-owned and reasonably priced. Personally, I want to see and handle the rifle before purchase if at all possible.

I've purchased some custom rifles that seemed to have everything I wanted or needed. However, after some use I figured out it really wasn't. I thought I needed certain features based on opinions, logic and advice. Some were based on preferences formed from aesthetics or comparison. In one example I really loved the weight, feel and look of the rifle. I quickly figured out I did not like the location of the rear sight or the type of front sight. It was also always too long for what I was doing. In another, I thought the type of trigger system was just a matter of getting used to. It was constantly on my mind and a little finicky to use (only set at half cock, but could be fully cocked and use one trigger). Eventually I took every aspect of the one rifle I favored and made an attempt to have a talented builder create one with those attributes plus other tweaks I wanted. I knew beforehand that I wanted to be able to change a few things if they didn't work out and the maker agreed it could be done. The rifle seemed about perfect on initial use. I kept it like that for about a year. Eventually I shortened the barrel and changed the rear sight. Many months later I shortened the stock. Then I tweaked the touch-hole and the flint-jaw angle. Finally, I have almost what I really want. This is a rendition of an English Sporting rifle. It doesn't have an on-board ram rod and I wish I had added that feature.

This journey was 3-years, 5 rifles and over $3500 long. The only reason it was only $3500 was because I recovered some money by selling the rifles that I did not favor.

My advice for what it's worth is to start with pre-owned rifles that you think you might like, and try some you don't think you'll like. When you are certain that specific features work for you, build that rifle (or have it built) with some possibility of further modification after the fact. Like I would not spend a lot on a custom nose-cap on a first build. What if you want to shorten the barrel and the wood needs cutting too? Pay attention to the kind of sights and placement before you have them installed. Be sure you can fill a dovetail and put another one if the sight is not really working for you. Same with a fancy buttplate. What if you have to change length or reduce comb? Leave room for these changes.

One big consideration I encourage is a rifle In-The -White. You can go to the range or hunt all you want with this rifle. However this canvas is partially blank and allows a lot of changes without a lot of scars. Tweak it until it is your perfect rifle and then have it finished.

Best of luck!

 

[Osseon]

Your first mistake was saying $2500

Knock off a zero

Second mistake, you have not put in the time to learn about the subject

Now to correct the first two mistakes, pay attention to directions offered by people who offer up ideas for your educational experience

Spend a week or more reading new and old posts on this forum, find the muzzleloader group in your area and join it

1). Why knock off a zero? No one sells $250 rifles. I already bought a $650 flintlock and it showed up rusty. Learned quite a bit. Now moving into rifle territory.

2) researching for 4-5 months when I can.

3) that's why I made the post.

 

[Davey Boy]

Do you

1). Why knock off a zero? No one sells $250 rifles. I already bought a $650 flintlock and it showed up rusty. Learned quite a bit. Now moving into rifle territory.

2) researching for 4-5 months when I can.

3) that's why I made the post.

If you knew anything at all you don't tell people how much you have to spend unless you got lots of money to waste.

There is someone out there right now this very second that will sell you what you want for $250, but not now, the price just went up to $2500

Muzzleloaders are fun, and don't let me discourage you from having fun.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Osseon, save yourself some time and money. @Alexander Efremenko just posted a 40 caliber rifle on the classifieds that basically covers all 10 of your questions and seems to me to be priced right. If my wife would let me get another rifle, I'd be looking for that one.

 

[oldhunter1954]

I went with a Kibler Colonial in 54 caliber. I plan to someday use it for hunting. His kits are top quality and easy to build. He has videos of the builds.

 

[Osseon]

If you knew anything at all you don't tell people how much you have to spend unless you got lots of money to waste.

There is someone out there right now this very second that will sell you what you want for $250, but not now, the price just went up to $2500

Muzzleloaders are fun, and don't let me discourage you from having fun.

Thats true if I was trying to buy from the forum members

 

[Osseon]

@Osseon, save yourself some time and money. @Alexander Efremenko just posted a 40 caliber rifle on the classifieds that basically covers all 10 of your questions and seems to me to be priced right. If my wife would let me get another rifle, I'd be looking for that one.

It looks very beautiful, unfortunately it looks like the stock is designed solely for right handed use. I'm asking him about it now. Single trigger is also a minus, but the Ash stock is simply amazing.

 

[GriscomRun]

Nothing wrong with a single trigger - at all. All my Cabin Creek rifles have singles.
A great deal of good, accurate, and knowledgeable advice has been offered. Please make good use of it. We all started from a similar place. And made mistakes along the way. These folks here are trying to help you avoid many. Keep your mind open and options flexible. One of the best little quotes found here is - - Don't over think this stuff.
Also, not knowing where you are located - try and get to a muzzleloader shoot nearby, look, see, ask questions, and handle rifles. Many of us regret that the DIXON's Riflemakers Fair in eastern Pa. has been discontinued. That would be the perfect place for you to attend. And learn. Last, your rifle does NOT have to be expensive to be good.
Please before you go and spend a ton - take more time - to see, in person talks, watch others; and don't make the mistakes so many do. You will find many people who really love the Thompson Center Hawken and Renegade - and with good reason. They may not be correct or pretty but they can be very accurate. We wish you good luck and hope you find a rifle that meets your desires, fits well, and you learn to love. Then dream of you million dollar custom.

Brad and Shane Emig Pa. Mountain Rifle (dressed) .54

( St. Peter said I could bring it )

 

[Osseon]

Nothing wrong with a single trigger - at all. All my Cabin Creek rifles have singles.
A great deal of good, accurate, and knowledgeable advice has been offered. Please make good use of it. We all started from a similar place. And made mistakes along the way. These folks here are trying to help you avoid many. Keep your mind open and options flexible. One of the best little quotes found here is - - Don't over think this stuff.
Also, not knowing where you are located - try and get to a muzzleloader shoot nearby, look, see, ask questions, and handle rifles. Many of us regret that the DIXON's Riflemakers Fair in eastern Pa. has been discontinued. That would be the perfect place for you to attend. And learn. Last, your rifle does NOT have to be expensive to be good.
Please before you go and spend a ton - take more time - to see, in person talks, watch others; and don't make the mistakes so many do. You will find many people who really love the Thompson Center Hawken and Renegade - and with good reason. They may not be correct or pretty but they can be very accurate. We wish you good luck and hope you find a rifle that meets your desires, fits well, and you learn to love. Then dream of you million dollar custom.

Brad and Shane Emig Pa. Mountain Rifle (dressed) .54

( St. Peter said I could bring it )

Thank you! I am very appreciative for all the advice and I will go forward with new found insight. I would love to get a handle on some BP weapons, I recently went to a gun show and was disappointed that everything was AR-15s and AK. I'm located in Florida so anything flintlock is probably a huge travel distance, we don't even have reenactments here.

I looked up Cabin Creek rifles just not and google has flagged the site as being hacked (I clicked anyways and was prompted to download some viruses lol) I'll look into getting some single triggers. Honestly the reason I was wanting a dual trigger assembly is because I have very long thin fingers, and usually my hands can wobble a bit while pulling heavy triggers. My Kar98a has a great trigger with long pull distance and a tight stopping point where I can rest while I aim carefully.

 

[oldwood]

Jagers are easy to carry , traditional ones were of impractical large calibers , like .60 t0 .75. Jager's fell out of uae on the frontier soon after they arrived in America from Central Europe because the American long rifle with its reduced caliber and long sighting plane was more accurate at long distance , and using calibers from .45 to .60 , made the long rifle more economical to feed powder wise and lead. ....... oldwood

 

[oldhunter1954]

Not sure where you are located. The gun Show in Deland had muzzle loaders last time I was there. Also Buffalo Bills shooting in Orlando has several in his store.

 

[Osseon]

Not sure where you are located. The gun Show in Deland had muzzle loaders last time I was there. Also Buffalo Bills shooting in Orlando has several in his store.

Thanks for the recommendations I'll take a look! They aren't far.

 

[Grenadier1758]

And he missed the Alafia Rendezvous back in January.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Try to look up information on Florida Frontiersman.

 

[jimeckersley]

Probably 100% target plinking, competition, I'm not into hunting.

For my "not into hunting" rifle'" my absolute favorite is a Hawken style .40 caliber with a 28" hook breach barrel, 15/16 cross the flats. I have a Thompson Center and a T/C copy. The .40 (.395 ball) has mild recoil, and achieves 1,800 to 2,000 feet per second with 35 to 40 grains of powder. I prefer Swiss but most any available brand will do. The .40 at those velocities hit about the same place on a target at 25 and 50 yards. It drops only about 4 to 5 inches at 100 yards.
Why 15/16 hook breech Hawken style? In under a minute I can swap out barrels with a .50 or .54 for hunting.
Cleaning is also a breeze as the barrel can be removed after removing a single wedge pin.

 

[GriscomRun]

My last thought -- do the learning before you do the buying. ML triggers are not a heavy press. this isn't a modern bench rest rifle my friend and you do not want a 2-oz trigger.