Trying to purchase a rifle and so many questions left unanswered.

[Osseon]

I feel like this forum is in dire need of a FAQs sticky at the top. Lots of things are referenced but rarely explained in recent topics. I've done some searching for days and its just a lot of time consuming work to research.

1) Barrel Threading, 1:66, 1:48 etc twist, what effect does it have on performance?

2) What Twist rate is period accurate?

3) What is a swamped barrel, what effect does it have on performance?

4) Rice barrel is referenced a lot, is it a type of barrel or a brand?

5) What is the best type of lubricant for a rifled barrel between shots, many different answers, and some seem conflicting currently made a batch of about 50/50 olive oil beeswax.

6) Is a short barrel or long barrel better for newcomers.
6a, what effect do they have on range/accuracy

7) Is pedersoli a good brand of BP rifle?

8) What are common custom/semi custom vendors that are recommended.

9) Do custom vendor arms perform better, or is it a aesthetics thing?

10) What caliber is most accurate in a rifle usually?

______________________

I'm currently sitting on about $2500 and I really want a nice flintlock. Just because I have that much available doesn't mean I necessarily want to spend every dime of it either. It seems like everyone has conflicting opinions on a lot of things. I know a few things I would want is a double trigger, most likely a late 1700s period, decent sights, and no cheekpad for right handed/left handed (as I fire Ambi but favoring left). I've looked into Jim Kibler, but he only has double triggers on the SMR and its absolutely massive looking, and I'm a bit of a tall twiggy guy, I imagine it would be hard to sight.

PS: the only thing I have right now is a Blunderbuss from Veteran Arms, and I love the thing as kind of a shoulder cannon for fun, I have always wanted to practice shooting accurately with a rifle, as BP is insanely cheap to fire, I'm wanting a very nice accurate rifle.

 

[ord sgt]

1. It depends what ball that you want to shoot. The slower twist is best with roundball. 1/48 can shoot either roundball or conical bullet.
3. A swamped barrel is thichest at the breech, tapers down toward the middle and flares out toward the barrel. It gives better balance when shooting offhand. Shoots as good or better than a straight wall barrel.
4. Rice barrels are well made and have a good reputation. Colerian, Green Mountain are good barrels too. Your choice.
5. Too many answers for this question.
6. Both length barrels shoot very much good. Good rifling is most important.
7. Pedersoli is a quality brand
10. It depends on what type of shooting you will be doing. .45 calibre and up are the most common.

 

[Osseon]

10. It depends on what type of shooting you will be doing. .45 calibre and up are the most common.

Probably 100% target plinking, competition, I'm not into hunting.

 

[ord sgt]

If you are willing to put in the work, Kibler is a good choice for a kit. You will need the extra money to buy all of the need accessories. Roundball, patches, powder, cleaning/loading rod, cleaning jag for the calibre rifle cleaning patches and some quality hollow ground turnscrews (so you don't bugger up the screw slots during the build and general maintenance). Plus any thing else you feel that you need.

 

[ord sgt]

Currently, Hatchet Jack is working on a Kibler build. Plenty of pictures.

 

[Osseon]

Currently, Hatchet Jack is working on a Kibler build. Plenty of pictures.

I'd probably just have Kibler himself do it and fork over the extra money, I don't have a shop space to do anything so complicated, Fiancée probably won't enjoy me doing it on the kitchen table.

Only issue is it seems his Mountain kit is the only one with double triggers, and he has a cheek rest for right handed shooting, where as I shoot mostly left. So Kibler is probably a no go.

 

[mooman76]

All the questions you asked are in the forum if you do some searching and reading. All your questions have been asked before. Maybe buy a good BP book. It explains things in detail.

 

[Osseon]

All the questions you asked are in the forum if you do some searching and reading. All your questions have been asked before. Maybe buy a good BP book. It explains things in detail.

Any recommendations on a book?

I understand all the questions have been asked before, but an FAQ sticky at the top for the most common ones saves people days of research making the hobby easier to get into.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Osseon,
Most of your questions do not have discrete black and white answers. Traditional muzzleloading guns require time and testing to develop loads that give the accuracy you seek. For example, optimum twist rate depends on caliber and powder charge. A faster twist might work well for a 45 caliber but poorly for a 62 caliber rifle that needs a big powder charge to get the ball moving. Lubrication can be all over the map and work just fine. You might benefit from reading Eric Bye's excellent book on flintlock shooting. You also may benefit from thinking about a rifle stocked up like an English or French fowler with no cheek pieces. That might help you with left handed shooting. Set triggers are OK but you can set up a simple trigger that is light and crisp. You also could get someone to build you a left handed gun.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Too many questions ! .I never saw a Kibler but they & similar offerings seem a good bet . But if your unskilled there are numerous cabable ML Gun makers out there .Dave Person just replied he is a noted maker one of many . May I suggest go to a big shoot such as the NMLRA matches at Friendship Indiana & Eric Byes book would assuredly have good info . Every muzzleloader user has his ideas as to what's good or bad . I distain all factory made guns other than a few . Yet others clearly love them the NMLRA have numerous books for the learner . . How long is a piece of string ? There is no short answer but this forum hosts many knowledgable people so you made a good start . Wish I had $$$ to splurge !
Rudyard

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Sounds like you just want all your questions answered without any bother to yourself. ALL your questions are more complicated & involved to just be placed in a "sticky" to be accessed by people that are totally unknowledgeable & unwilling to take the time to figure the complexities out. This is one game you can't buy with your wad of cash or by just sitting in front of your computer "demanding" answers. Figuring it all out is part of it my friend, so dive in, make some mistakes, learn something, & enjoy!!

 

[Grenadier1758]

For a good book on flint locks, @Eric Bye's book. He has an ad in our classified section.

SOLD - the book Flintlocks - a Practical Guide for their Use and Appreciation | Page 2 | The Muzzleloading Forum

OOps, it looks as if @Eric Bye has sold out of his supply of books. Hopefully you can find some elsewhere.

The book is also available through the NMLRA.

The faster twist rifling will tend to provide excellent accuracy at a smaller powder charge. Think 1 in 48 twist. What is important is that you get a groove depth of 0.010" to 0.012" with flat bottom, but radius grooved barrels work well too.

2. What twist rate is period accurate? What period? In some places that would be smooth bore. No one will quibble about a twist of 1 in 48". Jaeger rifles may have had twist rates of 1 in 28" while other rifles had twist rates of 1 in 66 or 1 in 72. Leaves me with the 1 in 48 as the recommendation.

5. What is the best type of lubricant for a rifled barrel between shots? The best is anything from saliva to a mix of water soluble oil and water to various over the counter wonder lubricants to Windex to Murphy's Oil soap and water and on for many pages. If it works, its the best. The recommendations are conflicting because so many lubricants and lubricant mixes work well.
The blend of olive oil and bee's wax is a much more appropriate patch lubricant. Also look at Track of the Wolf's Mink Oil.

6. A quality barrel will provide great accuracy regardless of barrel length.

8) What are common custom/semi custom vendors that are recommended. There are many custom and semi custom vendors that are good and any list I provide will leave out a lot of very good builders. Let us know where you are located and that can narrow the list considerably.

Kibler, Caywood, Cabin Creek (Brad Emig), Mike Miller, Jim Chambers, TVM (Matt Avance) ...

9) Do custom vendor arms perform better, or is it a aesthetics thing? No. Performance is most directly related to the tightness of the nut behind the butt plate.

10) What caliber is most accurate in a rifle usually? This is mostly related to the nut behind the butt plate, but at your level a 40 to 45 caliber will be easy to shoot and with confidence of the ease of shooting and the availability of 45 caliber components, the 45 would be the likely choice.

Being new to muzzle loading and while waiting to get your first rifle, you can spend $25 and get Dutch Schoultz's Black powder Accuracy System. The last time I checked its 94 pages of information related to the questions you are asking about lubricants, round ball how to select the best patch, and how to achieve accuracy. While he advocates strict adherence to his system, it is a good procedure to follow while you are climbing the learning curve.

Black powder rifle accuracy system -

 

[Columbus]

You're buying your first flintlock and the one thing I can assure you of is that it won't be your last. There is a learning curve and as one response said, you won't get all your answers from a computer screen. If I could make a suggestion it would be to buy a Pedersoli Frontier rifle and learn on it, make your mistakes on it and when you get confident in what you're doing sell it for most of what you paid for it or just put it up as a loaner for your friends or you fiancé to shoot and go buy the fancy gun. You're going to make mistakes galore, we all did (and still do) and this way you won't be doing it on a $3,000 gun.

 

[TFoley]

Basically, what you are asking is like the guy who walked into a car dealership and said, 'I want to learn to drive, what's the best car for me'. As you've seen, every one of your questions has multiple answers, usually prefaced with the proviso 'it all depends'.

It really does 'all depend'.

The very best idea so far is to get away from the screen and go out into the world to a local shoot - depending on where you are. The world is a big place, and right now we are assuming, because you have said that you have dollars to spend, that you might just be in the USA - of course, there are many countries that use a dollar of some kind - Hong Kong and Australia, for instance.

Telling us where you are is one of the very first things we need to know.

Over to you.

 

[user 48679]

I feel like this forum is in dire need of a FAQs sticky at the top. Lots of things are referenced but rarely explained in recent topics. I've done some searching for days and its just a lot of time consuming work to research.

1) Barrel Threading, 1:66, 1:48 etc twist, what effect does it have on performance?

The performance will depend upon what type of projectile is used with a particular rate of rifling twist.

As a general rule, patched round balls (PRB's) like a slower twist for best accuracy - like 1:60", 1:66", 1:72", etc; conical boolits prefer a faster twist rate like 1:28", 1:30", etc; and 1:48" is a compromise twist that gives fairly decent accuracy with both PRB's & conicals (but not the best accuracy the projectile can deliver, like it's used in the twist rate it likes best


2) What Twist rate is period accurate?

As noted above, guns made by various different makers in various different countries used any rate of twist that they thought would work best in their gun(s)


3) What is a swamped barrel, what effect does it have on performance?

A swamped barrel is one that's thinner in it's midsection than either the breech or muzzle ends - it has no effect on performance, but does make for a lighter gun than one with a full/straight octagon bbl


4) Rice barrel is referenced a lot, is it a type of barrel or a brand?

A Rice barrel is a a barrel made by Rice - so, it's a brand name

5) What is the best type of lubricant for a rifled barrel between shots, many different answers, and some seem conflicting currently made a batch of about 50/50 olive oil beeswax.

What's best is the lube that works best for YOU, and YOUR rifle


6) Is a short barrel or long barrel better for newcomers.
6a, what effect do they have on range/accuracy


A longer barrel usually gives better accuracy than a short barrel because the longer bbl will use every bit of power it's loaded with, and be a bit more accurate due to it's longer sight radius.


7) Is pedersoli a good brand of BP rifle?

Yes


8) What are common custom/semi custom vendors that are recommended.

Hobson's choice - everybody like one or another vendor, just like some folks prefer vanilla ice cream and others like pistachio ice cream


9) Do custom vendor arms perform better, or is it a aesthetics thing?

Custom made arms generally have a better fit/finish than a factory-made arm - along with a choice of stock wood, sights, & rifling that factory rifle models do not offer


10) What caliber is most accurate in a rifle usually?

As noted above, the skill of the shooter has more to do with accuracy than the caliber.
______________________[/I]

I hope that helps you somewhat...…….

 

[Fly103]

I Shoot a Pedersoli Pennsylvania in .50cal. Its looks are OK, the adjustable rear sight though not pc is nice. She's a hefty gun at nearly 8lbs with a straight 42" barrel making her very front heavy, and at only 5'6" im a short lightly built guy. I bought her in january and already have over 500 roundballs through her! I shoot her very well, so well in fact she won me the March shootin' match!

That said, I have a Kibler SMR in .40cal on order and I am currently working on a traditions kentucky kit as a practice run before i take on the Kibler.

Chris

 

[Osseon]

Telling us where you are is one of the very first things we need to know.

Over to you.

Yeah I'm located in the US. I've been shooting a smoothbore blunderbuss and having a blast with it for the last few weeks. I thought I was being particular with the things I listed but I guess it gets very nuanced!

Sounds like you just want all your questions answered without any bother to yourself. ALL your questions are more complicated & involved to just be placed in a "sticky" to be accessed by people that are totally unknowledgeable & unwilling to take the time to figure the complexities out. This is one game you can't buy with your wad of cash or by just sitting in front of your computer "demanding" answers. Figuring it all out is part of it my friend, so dive in, make some mistakes, learn something, & enjoy!!

Well to be clear, I've been researching a Rifle for probably going on 4-5 months when I can between work and being out of town and such. Most hobby circles I've been in has common FAQs or guides to get into it. Most of what I've looked up on this forum is 10+ years old, and it could be outdated. In fact a few vendors I looked up were dead links that I got from this very forum Maybe you think its selfish to ask a series of questions instead of looking them up, but after a while I just figured I'd get them all in one go. Seems like you are making quite a bit of assumptions about my age and attitude based on your post, which seems quite frankly unfair. Yes I have some money I've saved and worked 80hr weeks for and looking to get further into the hobby. I don't believe I should take criticism for it.

I Shoot a Pedersoli Pennsylvania in .50cal. Its looks are OK, the adjustable rear sight though not pc is nice. She's a hefty gun at nearly 8lbs with a straight 42" barrel making her very front heavy, and at only 5'6" im a short lightly built guy. I bought her in january and already have over 500 roundballs through her! I shoot her very well, so well in fact she won me the March shootin' match!

That said, I have a Kibler SMR in .40cal on order and I am currently working on a traditions kentucky kit as a practice run before i take on the Kibler.

Chris

Hmm, being long and front heavy worries me. I have a Kar98a and its difficult to fire offhand after just a few rounds and its probably not as long.

 

[Osseon]

Hi Osseon,
Most of your questions do not have discrete black and white answers. Traditional muzzleloading guns require time and testing to develop loads that give the accuracy you seek. For example, optimum twist rate depends on caliber and powder charge. A faster twist might work well for a 45 caliber but poorly for a 62 caliber rifle that needs a big powder charge to get the ball moving. Lubrication can be all over the map and work just fine. You might benefit from reading Eric Bye's excellent book on flintlock shooting. You also may benefit from thinking about a rifle stocked up like an English or French fowler with no cheek pieces. That might help you with left handed shooting. Set triggers are OK but you can set up a simple trigger that is light and crisp. You also could get someone to build you a left handed gun.

dave

Thank you for your answers! I'll look into the book. I don't necessarily need the left handed gun, as I don't mind having the lock next to my face, actually its a bit of fun being so close to the flash.

I think its a matter of having Analysis Paralysis right now. So many vendors, opinions, and questions floating around in my head its quite overwhelming.

 

[Fly103]

Osseon, the front heaviness is actually helpful, i've had to work out my technique but she is very easy for me to shoot offhand well. I start out aiming high then slowly, very slowly lower the barrel. When th sites cross the bull, i pause for just a moment and squeeze off the shot. I find the slow deliberate downward drift really helps keep me stable and greatly reduces my tendency to wobble.

Chris

 

[Osseon]

Osseon, the front heaviness is actually helpful, i've had to work out my technique but she is very easy for me to shoot offhand well. I start out aiming high then slowly, very slowly lower the barrel. When th sites cross the bull, i pause for just a moment and squeeze off the shot. I find the slow deliberate downward drift really helps keep me stable and greatly reduces my tendency to wobble.

Chris

I'll put it at the top of my list of interests. Do you know anything about the Jaeger rifles?