Traditional ML Season Support Base.

[roundball]

why not make the season truly traditional? all i'm asking is why not go full bore. dress,hunt and play the part. it seems the current way has only allowed the non-traditional problems to fester. this would be the season i would fully support. if not, then whats the point?

TG started a thread with a clearly defined purpose and you're bringing up an interesting but different dimension to that purpose.

Instead of trying to get TG to change the question he's asking, it would make a lot more sense if you started your own thread, asked your own question, and be the champion of your own different idea.
:redthumb:

 

[Claude Mathis]

why not make the season truly traditional? all i'm asking is why not go full bore. dress,hunt and play the part. it seems the current way has only allowed the non-traditional problems to fester. this would be the season i would fully support. if not, then whats the point?

It's not as black and white as some try to make it. It's not a sound argument to say that just because someone wants to use primitive weapons that all their gear has to be period correct. This isn't about reenacting, just hunting.

I think the idea is to define the weapons used in the "traditional season". Once that is done, we can choose to make the rest of our gear as traditional as we like. That part is up to the individual.

We need to stay clear about the difference in the traditional season (as defined by law) and reenacting/living history. They are not the same.

 

[buckknife]

Walt were are we going to find blaze orange buckskins?The state of Iowa does not allow any deer hunting in any firearms season unless you are wearing a coat or jactet or vest that is solid blaze orange.They would not allow it any other way.
If your buckskins were died blaze orange or you have to wear a orange vest over your buckskins would it fit the point of your season?
TG described a season that would not only get more people involed in traditional muzzle loading but would also keep the high power muzzle loaders out.That is the whole point of such a season. eace:

 

[tg]

I would sign up for a juried all out traditional hunt ion a heart beat but I do not think the numbers are there to support it and the cost and logistics would be overwhelming, what I proposed was a starting point that keeps out the modern guns, sights and bullets and lets the individual take it back to whatever level he desires, preferably at a time the woods is not full of archers, 30-06'rs, in-liners, shotgunners or other distractions that might put a damoer on stalking and short range hunting, it is admittedly a tall order and ,may be impractcal or impossible in some states, in-lines may have to go in some states, some states may not even give it a second look, I was just fishing for what support that a hypothetical concept that truely can be defined as a traditional hunting season might muster.

 

why not make the season truly traditional? all i'm asking is why not go full bore. dress,hunt and play the part. it seems the current way has only allowed the non-traditional problems to fester. this would be the season i would fully support. if not, then whats the point?

If you dress like a deer (i.e. buckskins) you can expect to be shot as a deer. (VBG)

 

[musketman]

Walt were are we going to find blaze orange buckskins?

Use regular buckskins with blaze orange beadwork...

Actually, I had a voyager's hat made with blaze orange wool yarn, so it satisfies the state requirements and still looks the part...

 

[waltcowan]

sorry gentelmen, i just wished to ask a few questions.

 

ahhhhh walt they are just making fun . thats what this is all about really , asking questions . after all thats probably how things got this bad , people didnt ask questions but said HA!! sounds good .

i am fast coming to the conclusion that maybe you have hit on part of the void though really .
The modern folks for what ever reason seem to associate a traditional season and traditional shooters with reenacting and trekking while hunting . They see everything as having to be PC for a traditional hunt .
Kinda one of them deals where if things are not this way , then they must be that way which in most cases is clear on the opposite side of the spectrum .
When I hunt I do so most times in some resemblance of period dress

 

[Runner]

The reason you read about those shots is that they were enough off the norm to be interesting enough to write about. A 30 yard shot was too normal to write about..

Like you, I see little problem with the inline action if the technology part is kept limited. Iron sights or peep. Roundball or short ballet type conical, black or a sub, action open to the weather, and a traditional ignition source.

 

[tg]

"short ballet type conical,'

I think we do do well to stick with the RB and keep the playing field level and not open the door to interpretation and modern ballistic R&D, allowing modern sights and conicals is what started the snowball rolling downhill many years ago.

 

[Runner]

TG, I fully understand your points, and in some ways I agree with them fully. Years back a huge buck stood up at 30 yards and I rolled him with a roundball to the neck. The hole was 19 inches long, ball sized in the solid muscle, and the ball was resting under the hide on the other side of the deer. I finished him with a dragoon as he was starting to get control of his legs again to get up. Two years ago I hit a buck that was quartering away a little far back with the flinter. The ball missed the off side shoulder and exited. I found him a couple of hours later, but there was no blood trail at all, even tho the ball exited. He went about 200 yards and I almost did not find him. A lot of hunters have seen these kinds of results with roundballs and are scared of them. They really do not trust them at all. Words will not change their views. It takes time and experience to do that. I quit using them myself for years because of the lack of blood trails we were experiencing, even tho we were recovering the game. I offer the ballet, or the 1.5 times bore bore sized conical as a starting place for those that feel that way. It offers a little better chance at exiting and tends to produce better bloodtrails. The important part is that it makes some people much more comfortable with the idea of hunting with a traditional gun. I prefer to use the REAL's for newcomers to this day. When they are ready, they move to roundball on their own. The gatherings and shoots teach them what words can't. I understand that you desire to move directly to the perfect season and that you are PC conscious. You can not legislate that kind of belief anymore than you can legislate morality.

 

[tg]

" They really do not trust them at all. Words will not change their views.'

I understand this and there would be other seasons for these folks to hunt,and I also cannot see a modified mdl 70 Winchester that has been made to shot a RB and have the sights files as a gun that would fit in a traditional season, I am not promoting a perfectly traditional season just thew basics, fixed sights, rb and guns of a type/style from about 1750 or so and earlier anything less will just open the door to someone building the better mousetrap to try and gain an edge once again if there is not enough interest to support such a season then we may as well leave things as they are for anything less will soon be twisted into what we already have, I submit the prospect of doing it right from the beginning and not watering it down and let it stand or fall on its own merit and not try to leave as many options as possible open just to get more people involved, this has been the mindset that has brought us to where we are now, the bullet thing is a biggy that would be vetry difficult to legislate to anyones satisfaction, the easiest fix is to eliminate them as an option all together..as stated before there will be many other hunts for those who wish to use adjustable sights, scopes, bullets, fiber optics and all the non trad stuff..... having said that if one could identify and determine a pre 1750 conical that looked and performed like the original that might be a viable option but not one to likely be imbraced as they did not work nearly as well as what we have today...which is the gist of my position on this issue.
And I will say that I believe that the vast number of bad experince with rb is not the fault of the ball but the lack of understanding of it and improper range and placement, bad stuff happens at times with rb or bullets.

 

[Mulebrain]

1750?? Huh well, so much for the caplock! I here ya TG, and I support ya! The way I want it, is to roll back the clock to the time of the first primitive season of 1968.

TG, I would assume the 1750 year precedes the so called inline from that era. I understand where your coming from!

I would like to see this: Whatever style of blackpowder firearms that were widely available in 1968 be used, and that is it! This would cure the ills!

The primitive seasons were started then, and I just think the original intention from 1968 be upheld with very strict guidlines.

We can always post pictures, and exacting specs on weapons allowed!

I do not beleive wiping out caplocks is the right thing to do. Lets pick up from 68'

Mule

We start treading on caplocks, and the locomotive will surely loose required steam!

 

[Runner]

Your definition just excluded me. All of my guns are half stock and only one is a flintlock. Only one has true fixed sights, and it is a 36. You are pushing for a harder definition than most rendezvous for a hunting season. From the way people responded at the gathering last weekend, I would say that that kind of strict interpretation would do nothing here. Not even a special managed hunt. Good luck! I am hoping to get a no scope managed hunt here as a starting point.

 

1750?? Huh well, so much for the caplock! I here ya TG, and I support ya! The way I want it, is to roll back the clock to the time of the first primitive season of 1968.

TG, I would assume the 1750 year precedes the so called inline from that era. I understand where your coming from!

I would like to see this: Whatever style of blackpowder firearms that were widely available in 1968 be used, and that is it! This would cure the ills!

The primitive seasons were started then, and I just think the original intention from 1968 be upheld with very strict guidlines.

We can always post pictures, and exacting specs on weapons allowed!

I do not beleive wiping out caplocks is the right thing to do. Lets pick up from 68'

Mule

We start treading on caplocks, and the locomotive will surely loose required steam!

Mule Brain,.... I agree!! :thumbsup:

..... the muzzleloader seasons of yesteryear have at least "set a precedence" which was accepted by many states,.... so, with a little fine tune'n, and correct-wording, combined with 20-20 hindsight,.... the "intentions" of the first special seasons might help very much in re-establish'n traditional muzzleloader seasons in the future.

YMHS
rollingb

 

[tg]

That should have been 1850 instead of 1750, and most production guns would quailfy, some may need a change of sights, no big deal, RB only, nothing different from a rhondy, inlines would be great if of a type around prior to the cutoff date but I doubt that there would be enough call for those to justify someone making them. The bullet thing is a tough one as there were conicals in the 18th century so if any are allowed we will find the modern high tech styles trying to get into the game so it will be best to stick with the RB I don't think anyone can mess around with it to get an extra 75 yds and better accuracy at 200 yds with primitive sights and early styled guns.The reason I set the standard as I did was to see if there really is a support base for a true traditional season, if only a watered down version will fly then I see no point in trying to change from what we have, as we well know we are not going to make it "more" traditional later...

 

TG,.... Personaly, I agree!! :thumbsup:

YMHS
rollingb

 

:thumbsup:

 

[oomcurt]

rb, this is not a direct reply to you...just that you were the last one posting. I can go along with traditional...no inlines...and..no scopes. Now re the, I guess one could call it "spirit" of primative or strict traditional in that, no conical...nope..I don't buy into that. Why? Simple...no sidelock traditional rifle unless it is some kind of special long range one will handle the charges these modern inlines use. At least that is my understanding. This also eliminates the sabot. I guess what I am driving at is while I can appreciate/understand all the PC that a true primative/traditional hunt would entail...no way in blazes would I want to participate in one. I'm just not that kind of person. Same with events that are juried...I spent over 16 years in the military...I sure don't need more regimentation by some PC cop that is hung up on thread counting.

 

rb, this is not a direct reply to you...just that you were the last one posting. I can go along with traditional...no inlines...and..no scopes. Now re the, I guess one could call it "spirit" of primative or strict traditional in that, no conical...nope..I don't buy into that. Why? Simple...no sidelock traditional rifle unless it is some kind of special long range one will handle the charges these modern inlines use. At least that is my understanding. This also eliminates the sabot. I guess what I am driving at is while I can appreciate/understand all the PC that a true primative/traditional hunt would entail...no way in blazes would I want to participate in one. I'm just not that kind of person. Same with events that are juried...I spent over 16 years in the military...I sure don't need more regimentation by some PC cop that is hung up on thread counting.

Once agin, I'd like to remind everyone thet we are discuss'n "weapons and componets" only,.... not camps, cloths, GPS's, transportation, binoculars and etc.

Civil War era rifles and componets present a "grey area" thet can be used to justify modern componets such as jacketed conical bullets, and scopes,.... unless someone can provide a simple (easyly understood) description of "those" weapons and componets, by which Conservation Officers can make "easy calls" without extra train'n.

Personaly, I'm always open for suggestions when it regards traditional muzzleloaders and componets of all kinds (whether they be, military, or, civilian).

YMHS
rollingb