Pushing For More Reasonable Hunting Regulations?

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(any mentions of fixed ammo are just for comparison and frame of reference, so don't gig me for that)
Let's face it, the United States is a mess when it comes to regulation. That is no more apparent than when one looks into the hunting regulations of the various states. Most are highly restrictive on what they allow, yet often the regulations are very convoluted and/or contradictory. An Example of this would be my home state of Ohio, which for decades allowed .45-70 "pistols"... complete with bipod, scope, and 16" Barrel... yet no "rifles" were allowed lol (they do now, but only straight walled cartridges). Another, and more pertinent to this forum, is the requirement of Ohio and many other states to have a ML rifle that is ".38"(ohio), .40, or .45 as the minimum for common deer species. Most of these states also allow people to hunt with .380ACP pistols, or many don't even have a minimum for fixed ammo.

Hunting, like many other things in this land, have been turned into a "game" of sorts, where "players" have to tiptoe around rules (money helps) in order to get what they want, rather than just being pragmatic. Hunting isn't a game, it's stalking and killing living things, and shouldn't be treated as such.

As I build Trad-styled bullet rifles, I look into the regs for various states, out of curiosity if nothing else. I've noticed that most states have regs like this, and they all revolve around "bore size", rather than the capabilities of the arm/loading. Many places (Hungary and Austria, and Germany particularly) have rifle hunting regulations (including ML's in BP seasons) based around a minimum Projectile weight and energy for each game species. As long as your rifle meets that, you're good. That allows people to hunt with what they have, rather than forcing them to buy something special, that doesn't do anything what they already have won't do. This is especially important for ML's as they can be loaded up in wildly different ways. A .32 loaded with a ball and 7gr of powder is not remotely the same as if loaded up with a 225gr bullet and 80gr of powder (the max i recommend in MY .32's), yet they are the same caliber, they can even be the same rifle! Likewise, a 278gr .36 with 85gr charge is not even in the same ballpark as a 180gr .490 round ball. There is a reason bullet rifles were as popular as they were 1820-1880, especially amongst hunters and target shooters.

Then there is the issue of corruption... not the blatant, Grant Administration type, but the subtle influx of cash and merchandise that flows into the halls of power from large companies to politicians and bureaucrats that are supposed to regulate hunting for the benefit of future generations and the animals/habitats themselves. In my lifetime, I have seen most states go from being adamant that the only ML worthy of being hunted with was a .50 (or .48 in some states back in the early 2000's) (not coincidently, the only caliber (other than a few .54's) offered by most large companies); to when TC and Traditions, CVA, ect wanted to release .45's, lowering the minimum to .44, to now that many of these companies are releasing .40's, lowering it to .38. Just this year, there are rumors of Knight and CVA "pushing the envelope" on small bore Muzzle Loading (it's already been done, so it's not revolutionary), and guess what: Georgia magically decided to lower their minimum Caliber for ML's to .30. The Press release for the passing of the bill was adorned in CVA merchandise around the representative's office. Oregon banned bullets for ML's (in ML season) that exceeded 2 calibers in length, which were often used traditionally in bullet-rifles (especially 1850's onward) (this helps powerbelt and other "premium" ML bullet makers, and drives sales of alternative powders for increased velocity).Some would say the relationship between regulations and what's available is a chicken and the egg situation, with the regulations dictating what is on the market; and while that is true to an extent, what I have seen in my lifetime has shown that the actors in the market have undue influence, through gun/hunting rag writers and Marketing/lobbying, on the regulatory process.

Most of the regulations on the books do very little to protect the animals from fools, (the guy hunting deer in Ohio with a .380 pistol doesn't even have to prove he is competent, at least in most European countries, you have to prove competency) and they don't make hunting more accessible to prospective hunters, as they require special equipment that many people aren't interested in for any reason other than to go out and hunt. I am proposing that we hunters need to start pushing for more responsible, pragmatic regulations in hunting. Ones that are not based on a knee-jerk reaction of a bureaucrat or politician, but on some logic and science. The goal of this tread is to provide the community with a place to discuss reasonable equipment regulations. Since I Posted it, I'll go first, I don't have first hand hunting knwolege of every animal in NA, but I have been around Ohio game a lot and have limited experience with Elk hunting (I think they're the most beautiful animals in NA), those more attuned to the intricacies of those beautiful animals, please come forward. I've seen most game animals in NA in the wild, but have no experience hunting them, so I can only make assumptions and supply rough ideas of what would work. Many of these are put together from my own experience and from gleaning through forums like this to find what people are using. I am using Ft/lbs at the muzzle, because simple $80 chronographs are more affordable to normal people, and more likely to be accepted for use by the states (I know different projectiles act differently at range, and energy isn't everything, but that just means your range changes based on what your shooting).

My suggested minimums for single projectile weapons (medium-large game, I think we can agree .22RF and .32/.36 RB rifles can handle small game) (keep in mind these would be the minimums, so the fools that have no sense can get a clue, and the state can punish those too dense to follow reasonable guidelines):

Common Deer (Blacktail, Whitetail, Mule)- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
Feral Hog- 130gr minimum projectile, minimum 500ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag) (.440 RB (.45 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Elk- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Black Bear- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps) (I wouldn't do it, but we're talking reasonable minimums here)
Brown Bear/Grizzly- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
Moose- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
American Bison- 220 gr projectile, 1623ft/lbs (Buff Bore .454 Cas) (.530 RB (.54 rifle), loaded to 1875fps)
Wolf- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
Puma- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Bobcat-60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Coyote- 60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Javelina- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)

What do y'all think? please post you're ideas, and reasoning for them.
 
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forgot a few things:
Since most of us don't hunt with ML pistols, I focused on rifles.
1. If you can't stay on topic, feel free to read, and then move along
2. If you can't be respectful, move along
3. Your preferences are different from other people, but we're talking minimums for an average ML hunter at at least bow/pistol range. Feel free to mention them, as they pertain to informing you of reasonable minimums, but don't get BH if people disagree.
4. If you think another way to make regs free and fair is better, please let us know!

I look forward to y'all's input
 
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That's more true than I think we like to admit lol. But if the insanity of European govt can fathom it, the states should still be able to manage lol. Then again, I'm told I have entirely too high of expectations for people 🤣
 

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My suggested minimums for single projectile weapons ...,

Common Deer (Blacktail, Whitetail, Mule)- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
This would exclude a certain very popular rifle and cartridge, which would feed anti-gunner arguments. The cartridge is a proven deer slayer too.

Feral Hog- 130gr minimum projectile, minimum 500ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag) (.440 RB (.45 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Feral hogs are pests in a lot of places, and as such there isn't a lot you're going to get as far as regulations.

Elk- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Black Bear- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps) (I wouldn't do it, but we're talking reasonable minimums here)
Brown Bear/Grizzly- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
Moose- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
Um..., have you ever loaded a .50 caliber round ball and actually chronographed it at 2000 fps ? 🤔 You're proposing an arbitrary performance level, rather unattainable, while being critical of DNR regulations that are arbitrary. ;)

American Bison- 220 gr projectile, 1623ft/lbs (Buff Bore .454 Cas) (.530 RB (.54 rifle), loaded to 1875fps)
Wolf- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
Puma- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Bobcat-60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Coyote- 60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Javelina- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
So HOW does the DNR know the velocity of the fixed ammo? Is it based on what's printed on the box? So a guy doesn't have a box with him, then what? What if a person is using reloads? AH so the DNR will be enabled to seize a "sample" of ammunition from any hunter for testing, and if the test is bad then the hunter gets a citation and a court date ?? How many samples? If the guy is stopped with a single live round in the firearm, and no other live rounds upon his person, I guess he's done for the day, since the DNR will have to take the ammo from the hunter?

OH WAIT they will need to take the rifle too as a short barreled firearm will give you lower MV than a longer barrel, plus an older gun like a break action or lever action may leak some gas...., so much for the hunting season....

How does the DNR know the MV and the bullet weight of the muzzleloader? You have to know the MV and the bullet weight to get the foot lbs. of energy. Pull the load? Since the DNR isn't going to carry chronographs into the woods, they are going to need to take the loaded ML back for testing. Testing might take a couple months, so..., too bad ML hunter, you're not using that ML this season. I hope the powder in that flintlock doesn't degrade a bit so that you're just under the minimum velocity, and thus you have to appear in court.

Further, it's a well documented fact that all lead projectiles, and especially patched round ball, have a much different wounding capability than jacketed ammunition when the muzzle velocity is low (low compared to the fixed ammo). Institution of regulations that are arbitrarily based on modern, fixed ammunition as a replacement for arbitrary regulations, doesn't seem like the best idea (imho).

I don't doubt that my state is rather silly in some situations, but so far they kill a lot of deer here, and they recently changed the shotgun-only-zone to include straight walled modern cartridges, AND a final primitive season for traditional ML's.

LD
 
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If you are referring to Black rifles and the military chambering, most people don't regard it as a good choice. 90gr is one of, if not the most popular deer loadings in the big black rifle though (.243WIN).

I break 2000 fps in my .50 RB gun with a 110gr charge (weighed) of 3F, and it's only a 26" barrel. That is backed by Goex's own charts with sample loadings (they get 1990fps with 100gr 2F).

With bore based regs, what stops someone from loading 10 gr of powder under a .50 ball? Nothing.

The DNR most of the time doesn't know what you have, and takes it on faith, in my experience, if you even run across one of 'em. Changing regs to allow people to chose what they want is less about stopping people that don't follow the reg's to begin with, and more about making it easier for us normal people to hunt the way we want. While I'm not advocating doing it, a friend of mine growing up was asked by a DNR guy at a check station (when OH still had them) what caliber the ML he used was (which was sitting in the bed of the truck with the deer), kid said :".45" (back when OH required it). Guy never questioned it... that rifle was .40. Edit: I remember it was a TC Seneca, so it might have been a .36.

I get that coyotes and Hogs are considered nuisance animals, but some places still have regs on them. I also think it might be a good idea that when you get/renew your license, you have to prove competency with your weapon, and that includes running it over a chrony. It works well enough in Europe, not sure why it can't work here? As far as getting info off the box, most hunters don't carry the box, so it's all on faith; not to mention, there is enough data on BP loads for metallic cartridges to get a rough idea of what a load can do, for that not to be an issue.

Cast bullets deform a bit more than jacketed bullets (which in large game, can limit penetration vs solids), and that's about it, in my experience. They aren't magic. A low velocity bullet lacks energy (energy causes more damage than just the hole the projectile punches), a low SD bullet sucks at penetration and they're ballistically inefficient for their weight. That doesn't change whether you're shooting a ML RB gun, a ML bullet-rifle, or a modern uber-magnum repeater.

The general shooting/hunting public think we here practice the dark-arts, even more so in the eyes of the general public. No need to go adding mysticism to ML guns and BP shooting to make it seem even more like arcane magic 🧙‍♂️
 
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ML48

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(any mentions of fixed ammo are just for comparison and frame of reference, so don't gig me for that)
Let's face it, the United States is a mess when it comes to regulation. That is no more apparent than when one looks into the hunting regulations of the various states. Most are highly restrictive on what they allow, yet often the regulations are very convoluted and/or contradictory. An Example of this would be my home state of Ohio, which for decades allowed .45-70 "pistols"... complete with bipod, scope, and 16" Barrel... yet no "rifles" were allowed lol (they do now, but only straight walled cartridges). Another, and more pertinent to this forum, is the requirement of Ohio and many other states to have a ML rifle that is ".38"(ohio), .40, or .45 as the minimum for common deer species. Most of these states also allow people to hunt with .380ACP pistols, or many don't even have a minimum for fixed ammo.

Hunting, like many other things in this land, have been turned into a "game" of sorts, where "players" have to tiptoe around rules (money helps) in order to get what they want, rather than just being pragmatic. Hunting isn't a game, it's stalking and killing living things, and shouldn't be treated as such.

As I build Trad-styled bullet rifles, I look into the regs for various states, out of curiosity if nothing else. I've noticed that most states have regs like this, and they all revolve around "bore size", rather than the capabilities of the arm/loading. Many places (Hungary and Austria, and Germany particularly) have rifle hunting regulations (including ML's in BP seasons) based around a minimum Projectile weight and energy for each game species. As long as your rifle meets that, you're good. That allows people to hunt with what they have, rather than forcing them to buy something special, that doesn't do anything what they already have won't do. This is especially important for ML's as they can be loaded up in wildly different ways. A .32 loaded with a ball and 7gr of powder is not remotely the same as if loaded up with a 225gr bullet and 80gr of powder (the max i recommend in MY .32's), yet they are the same caliber, they can even be the same rifle! Likewise, a 278gr .36 with 85gr charge is not even in the same ballpark as a 180gr .490 round ball. There is a reason bullet rifles were as popular as they were 1820-1880, especially amongst hunters and target shooters.

Then there is the issue of corruption... not the blatant, Grant Administration type, but the subtle influx of cash and merchandise that flows into the halls of power from large companies to politicians and bureaucrats that are supposed to regulate hunting for the benefit of future generations and the animals/habitats themselves. In my lifetime, I have seen most states go from being adamant that the only ML worthy of being hunted with was a .50 (or .48 in some states back in the early 2000's) (not coincidently, the only caliber (other than a few .54's) offered by most large companies); to when TC and Traditions, CVA, ect wanted to release .45's, lowering the minimum to .44, to now that many of these companies are releasing .40's, lowering it to .38. Just this year, there are rumors of Knight and CVA "pushing the envelope" on small bore Muzzle Loading (it's already been done, so it's not revolutionary), and guess what: Georgia magically decided to lower their minimum Caliber for ML's to .30. The Press release for the passing of the bill was adorned in CVA merchandise around the representative's office. Oregon banned bullets for ML's (in ML season) that exceeded 2 calibers in length, which were often used traditionally in bullet-rifles (especially 1850's onward) (this helps powerbelt and other "premium" ML bullet makers, and drives sales of alternative powders for increased velocity).Some would say the relationship between regulations and what's available is a chicken and the egg situation, with the regulations dictating what is on the market; and while that is true to an extent, what I have seen in my lifetime has shown that the actors in the market have undue influence, through gun/hunting rag writers and Marketing/lobbying, on the regulatory process.

Most of the regulations on the books do very little to protect the animals from fools, (the guy hunting deer in Ohio with a .380 pistol doesn't even have to prove he is competent, at least in most European countries, you have to prove competency) and they don't make hunting more accessible to prospective hunters, as they require special equipment that many people aren't interested in for any reason other than to go out and hunt. I am proposing that we hunters need to start pushing for more responsible, pragmatic regulations in hunting. Ones that are not based on a knee-jerk reaction of a bureaucrat or politician, but on some logic and science. The goal of this tread is to provide the community with a place to discuss reasonable equipment regulations. Since I Posted it, I'll go first, I don't have first hand hunting knwolege of every animal in NA, but I have been around Ohio game a lot and have limited experience with Elk hunting (I think they're the most beautiful animals in NA), those more attuned to the intricacies of those beautiful animals, please come forward. I've seen most game animals in NA in the wild, but have no experience hunting them, so I can only make assumptions and supply rough ideas of what would work. Many of these are put together from my own experience and from gleaning through forums like this to find what people are using. I am using Ft/lbs at the muzzle, because simple $80 chronographs are more affordable to normal people, and more likely to be accepted for use by the states (I know different projectiles act differently at range, and energy isn't everything, but that just means your range changes based on what your shooting).

My suggested minimums for single projectile weapons (medium-large game, I think we can agree .22RF and .32/.36 RB rifles can handle small game) (keep in mind these would be the minimums, so the fools that have no sense can get a clue, and the state can punish those too dense to follow reasonable guidelines):

Common Deer (Blacktail, Whitetail, Mule)- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
Feral Hog- 130gr minimum projectile, minimum 500ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag) (.440 RB (.45 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Elk- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Black Bear- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps) (I wouldn't do it, but we're talking reasonable minimums here)
Brown Bear/Grizzly- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
Moose- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
American Bison- 220 gr projectile, 1623ft/lbs (Buff Bore .454 Cas) (.530 RB (.54 rifle), loaded to 1875fps)
Wolf- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
Puma- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Bobcat-60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Coyote- 60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Javelina- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)

What do y'all think? please post you're ideas, and reasoning for them.
Whenever the government gets involved in anything....it is going to be a total "Cluster [email protected]#$k!!! Period!
We don't need more regulations. What we need is, people with common sense!
 
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Whenever the government gets involved in anything....it is going to be a total "Cluster [email protected]#$k!!! Period!
We don't need more regulations. What we need is, people with common sense!
would you say something like what has been done in Africa and what was largely done in 16-1700's Germanic States would be a better option? What I mean is Private land owners in an area (like county by county) going together to decide the matter of hunting/conservation on their collective land, and hiring wardens to take care of it, and the state making it's own rules for the land it controls (state parks and such)? That's an interesting idea!
 

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The muzzleloader regulations here in Oklahoma are fairly simple. 40 caliber minimum. Pistols and rifles. Single projectile and powder loaded from the muzzle. Telescopic sights are allowed.
 
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The muzzleloader regulations here in Oklahoma are fairly simple. 40 caliber minimum. Pistols and rifles. Single projectile and powder loaded from the muzzle. Telescopic sights are allowed.
But does it make the most sense? Either the reg that allows .32 S&W pistols for deer is wrong... or the .40 ML requirement is comically overkill. Notice also, that the minimum is .40, and that coincides with CVA and Knight's smallest offerings. .32 S&W is lucky to achieve 200 ft/lbs at the muzzle, a .40 with a 370gr bullet and a 90gr charge will yield around 1400 ft/lbs, with a vastly superior bullet. This is the contradiction that I was concerned about.
Guns are guns, while the ones we on this forum like to use are considerably less advanced, they still work the same way modern ones do. why should we be forced to use super OP equipment, while everyone else gets to use whatever they want?

I do like that OK allows you to have both archery and ML equipment on you, as long as your licensed for both, not a lot of places do that. 👍
 

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Texas simply states a muzzleloader must be only loaded from the muzzle, no cap and ball revolvers, no minimum caliber, the majority of Texas muzzleloader hunters are using off the shelf.45-.50 cal inline rifles with pellets and plastic coated bullets, which in my opinion is just another modern rifle, but that’s there business not mine, I’m 95% flintlock hunter and basically if I’m carrying it hunting I’m doing so because I’m competent in my ability to kill with it, I surely don’t need to prove myself to a government employee or want them poking their nose in my business any more than they already do, the only regulation I’d like to see changed in Texas is the addition of a true primitive season, maybe flintlock only to coincide with bow season in early November instead of January which coincides with the late youth firearms season, but any new regulations involving caliber or velocity etc are simply not needed or wanted in my opinion, less government intrusion is better as far as I’m concerned, I’ve been hunting the majority of my life, I don’t have the desire to start jumping through hoops to keep doing what I enjoy.
 
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Texas simply states a muzzleloader must be only loaded from the muzzle, no cap and ball revolvers, no minimum caliber, the majority of Texas muzzleloader hunters are using off the shelf.45-.50 cal inline rifles with pellets and plastic coated bullets, which in my opinion is just another modern rifle, but that’s there business not mine, I’m 95% flintlock hunter and basically if I’m carrying it hunting I’m doing so because I’m competent in my ability to kill with it, I surely don’t need to prove myself to a government employee or want them poking their nose in my business any more than they already do, the only regulation I’d like to see changed in Texas is the addition of a true primitive season, maybe flintlock only to coincide with bow season in early November instead of January which coincides with the late youth firearms season, but any new regulations involving caliber or velocity etc are simply not needed or wanted in my opinion, less government intrusion is better as far as I’m concerned, I’ve been hunting the majority of my life, I don’t have the desire to start jumping through hoops to keep doing what I enjoy.
I do like the TX regs, they let people use what they want on Private land, but have some extra restrictions for state land. I think it might be the most reasonable out there. 🤠 I like the idea of having an extra season like the PA flintlock season though, call it a "heritage season" or something, allows us to break out the ball throwers lol! Most states aren't like TX, unfortunately, and most of the state govt's will never relinquish the appearance of "control" they think they have. It would be a "culture shock" for them lol. sad to see.
 
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I do not know what I am going to use next year. I hear that the deer are wearing kevlar these days.
I hear they grow 10x when they cross the borders out of Canada or Mexico to the US, and the border patrol hands them a vest :p, at least that's what I get from the hunting-rags lol
 

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would you say something like what has been done in Africa and what was largely done in 16-1700's Germanic States would be a better option? What I mean is Private land owners in an area (like county by county) going together to decide the matter of hunting/conservation on their collective land, and hiring wardens to take care of it, and the state making it's own rules for the land it controls (state parks and such)? That's an interesting idea!
Unlike Europe we didn't have to kiss a king or lord's behind to hunt in "his" forest to put meat on the table. Now days if you own the property on both sides of the stream, you also own the stream bottom, however the state owns the water and the fish in. By the same token the state owns all the game on all the lands. A landowner can usually hunt and fish without license on his own property but most other people have to buy a license from the state to catch the same fish or shoot the same deer on the same ground. Just sounds like we landowners get freebie for being gamekeepers.
As to regulations, this is still a land of 50 individual states and 1 swamp, each deciding it's own way. Collective thinking is not an American trait. The "State this and the State that" always sounds a little too "1984" for my comfort. YMMV
 

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I break 2000 fps in my .50 RB gun with a 110gr charge (weighed) of 3F, and it's only a 26" barrel. That is backed by Goex's own charts with sample loadings (they get 1990fps with 100gr 2F).
So you're saying you chronographed it? I must've missed it, OH and GOEX charts are poor. The weight of the projectiles is wrong, for example. They also don't specify barrel lengths when they tested, nor date and lot. BUT I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and check to see if any of my .50's will go that fast.

You REALLY need to review black powder terminal ballistics. "Energy" with a round ball does not compute the same as it does with a conical, especially a modern jacketed bullet. The results on impact are much different. Further, a soft lead cast conical performs one way, while an alloy in either a round ball or conical performs in a different manner.

OH and as far as hunting as we want..., DNR cannot go onto private land without the land owner's permission, OR unless they have observed an obvious violation. Unless you have some weird search and seizure laws in your state. No idea why you can't hunt as you "wish". What exactly did you want to do, hunting wise, that you cannot do due to regulations, assuming we are talking black powder muzzleloaders?

IF DNR doesn't have a clue when it comes to enforcement, you want to change the laws they don't enforce, why?

In my State, it's a minimum .40 caliber rifle for large game, and a minimum black powder load of 60 grains. Most people use 70 because the DNR officer will pull the ball or bullet, and check. We used to have black powder and shotgun only zones, but the state has added some modern cartridges. We can use smaller caliber rifles or shot for small game. Coyotes, feral hogs, and feral goats (we get them from time to time - folks cut them loose as they don't want them as pets any more) and these are not protected. A squirrel in the woods is a game animal; one in your attic is a pest. The archery folks have a full six weeks before the early black powder season opens. We can also hunt with black powder during the modern season, and there is a new traditional season at the very end of the hunting season, in January. The modern folks have plenty of options as well, in both platform, cartridge, and gun type.

I don't see any need to coalesce hunting regs. Right now they seem to be tailored to the needs of sustaining the game animals. In Maryland where the deer are much more scarce, the limit is a buck, and two doe, but where I live and the deer are literally everywhere, it's two bucks and TEN doe....

LD
 
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zimmerstutzen

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Here in Pennsylvania, the problem is that the rule makers don't know crap about the evolution of firearms, especially about muzzle loaders and neither do their advisors. They pass some ridiculous rules that make no sense and often ignore their own laws and regulations when advising the public. We have 2 special regulation (suburban) areas where rifles are illegal for deer. Yet some rifles are permitted as long as the bores are measured in shot gun gauge sizes, or the muzzle loaders. Muzzle loading rifles and smoothbores are legal for deer in these areas, but not muzzle loading pistols, even smooth bores. (Some folks have argued that a smooth bore flintlock pistol is a shotgun and the game commission still won't allow it, but has issued an advisory that when a 45 revolver is loaded with 410 shells it is a shotgun for purposes of the regulations.) The regulations for years clearly limited ignition of muzzle loaders to flint, percussion of primers. No wheel locks or match locks were permitted for deer. (Kit Ravenshear wrote articles about bagging PA whitetail with a matchlock, back when it was legal for "any muzzle loader" in the 1960's and early 1970's) About 1984, they rewrote the law and screwed things up royally. Then the Game Commission in it's ignorance really fouled things up. They passed a rule requiring open sights, yet in the booklet passed out with licenses, advised that any muzzle loader over 45 caliber was legal for deer and could have peep sights, but no scopes. Eventually the passed a regulation with great fan fare sayi8ng they were going to allow peep sights and they changed the "open sights" language. Three years later, they amended it back to requiring "open sights" but the advisory booklet said peep sights were legal. Muzzle loader for deer are also limited to 44 caliber and up and single barrel with single projectile ammunition. Then came the debate on whether a saboted 40 caliber pistol bullet fired out of a 45 caliber muzzle loader was legal. Muzzle loader Pistols must for deer must be 50 caliber and up, single barrel. Cap and Ball revolvers were legal for deer up to 1984 in the egular firearms season. The new rules said only muzzle loaders, shotguns and centerfire arms for deer. Previously, certain rim fire cartridges over 25 caliber were legal for deer. (a 41 Swiss Rim Fire about equals the ballistics of a 30-30) But a cap and ball revolver is not a shotgun or muzzle loader. It could only be used for deer if a centerfire. So for the years that I hunted with a cap and ball revolver, I carried a Remington cap tin that clearly indicated the No 11 percussion caps were "Center Fire" I was checked once by a Deputy Game Officer and he never questioned what kind of pistol it was. The Irony, is that in PA, ANY centerfire manually operated pistol or rifle is legal for deer. Even the 2 MM Kolibri cartridge with it's lowly 7 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

Some states limit firearms by ft/ibs energy. I heard that some go by minimum caliber (VA) I have heard of proposals to limit cartridges by case volume. Apparently an attempt to save such high power cartridges as the 220 Swift from the same fate as the 22 Hornet. Some have certain barrel lengths for muzzle loaders. At one time PA had a muzzle loader minimum 44 caliber propelled by at least 40 grains of powder and muzzle loaders for the special flint season had to be originals or replicas of pre 1800 firearms. But along came Thomson Center and others with their short barreled half stocks and the Commission dropped the pre1800 requirement like a hot rock. It also took a visit from Doc White to get in-lines approved for deer here. . However much I criticize my states Game Commission, we do have a three week flintlock only season starting the day after Christmas. for which I am truly grateful.
 
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So you're saying you chronographed it? I must've missed it, OH and GOEX charts are poor. The weight of the projectiles is wrong, for example. They also don't specify barrel lengths when they tested, nor date and lot. BUT I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and check to see if any of my .50's will go that fast.

You REALLY need to review black powder terminal ballistics. "Energy" with a round ball does not compute the same as it does with a conical, especially a modern jacketed bullet. The results on impact are much different. Further, a soft lead cast conical performs one way, while an alloy in either a round ball or conical performs in a different manner.

OH and as far as hunting as we want..., DNR cannot go onto private land without the land owner's permission, OR unless they have observed an obvious violation. Unless you have some weird search and seizure laws in your state. No idea why you can't hunt as you "wish". What exactly did you want to do, hunting wise, that you cannot do due to regulations, assuming we are talking black powder muzzleloaders?

IF DNR doesn't have a clue when it comes to enforcement, you want to change the laws they don't enforce, why?

In my State, it's a minimum .40 caliber rifle for large game, and a minimum black powder load of 60 grains. Most people use 70 because the DNR officer will pull the ball or bullet, and check. We used to have black powder and shotgun only zones, but the state has added some modern cartridges. We can use smaller caliber rifles or shot for small game. Coyotes, feral hogs, and feral goats (we get them from time to time - folks cut them loose as they don't want them as pets any more) and these are not protected. A squirrel in the woods is a game animal; one in your attic is a pest. The archery folks have a full six weeks before the early black powder season opens. We can also hunt with black powder during the modern season, and there is a new traditional season at the very end of the hunting season, in January. The modern folks have plenty of options as well, in both platform, cartridge, and gun type. Changing the regs is not about their enforcement or what people that don't follow them do... its about not impeding people who want to follow them (that's most of us).

I don't see any need to coalesce hunting regs. Right now they seem to be tailored to the needs of sustaining the game animals. In Maryland where the deer are much more scarce, the limit is a buck, and two doe, but where I live and the deer are literally everywhere, it's two bucks and TEN doe....

LD
Yah, bud, chronographed, 110gr of powder sends a 172 gr ball zippin lol, and a .50 ball of pure lead weighs about 188gr (load without patch). Well, I think I'd like to take out my .32 rifle and smoke deer, since the .36 (.38 g-g) does so well. DNR in OH go on private land all the time, even if they don't/can't actually see anything, just to "make sure". Until they confirm there isn't an offense being committed, they can be there, as most hunting land isn't part of the curtilage (that's not just an OH thing).

Energy is computed the same way, it doesn't matter what the projectile shape is, or what the propellant is. Softer alloys deform more, harder ones less, that isn't news; and not everyone shooting a ML is using pure lead, just like modern cartridges don't always use pure lead. If you make a bullet that is 1 caliber long... guess what.... it performs the same way as a ball lol (albeit it is slightly heavier)... they suck compared to bullets for penetration and energy at any appreciable distance (especially considering their weight).

My .36 shoots a 278gr bullet to an average of 1728fps with a 90gr charge of 4F, it's a 32" barrel. The issue is that bore size does not equal performance (unless we're talking about round ball ammo, which most ML'ers out there aren't using); and if a guy can use a .380 auto to hunt deer (or a .32s&W in OK lol), then I should be able to take my .32 rifle (that has been chrony'd at 1800fps with a 200gr bullet and 80gr charge) out lol. The issue is that we are forced to use comically OP stuff, while everyone else gets to use what they want, more or less.
 

Loyalist Dave

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Energy is computed the same way, it doesn't matter what the projectile shape is, or what the propellant is. Softer alloys deform more, harder ones less, that isn't news; and not everyone shooting a ML is using pure lead, just like modern cartridges don't always use pure lead. If you make a bullet that is 1 caliber long... guess what.... it performs the same way as a ball lol (albeit it is slightly heavier)... they suck compared to bullets for penetration and energy at any appreciable distance (especially considering their weight).
Actually while energy is computed in footlbs. the behavior of the lead round ball upon impact is quite different in its effect, than the modern projectile. Even when it's a lead bullet in the shape of a modern projectile. While the ballistic coefficient is poor on a sphere, it's the action at impact that = the harvesting of the game. This is a tested fact concerning round ball vs. lead conicals. See The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles Forsyth 1867


LD
 
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