Traditional ML hunting in CA

[Blitz]

From the CA fish and Foul website:
"How will wildlife officers check for compliance?
All ammunition in a hunter’s possession may be inspected by wildlife officers. In some cases, if a wildlife officer suspects a hunter is in possession of lead ammunition and cannot prove otherwise in the field, he or she may seize a cartridge or bullet for further analysis. Hunters are encouraged to assist in confirming compliance by retaining and carrying in the field ammunition boxes or other packaging."


Funny how they say "Hunters are encouraged to assist in confirming compliance by retaining and carrying in the field ammunition boxes or other packaging"
Well, under the 5th A, I'll let them "seize" a projectile and I get a receipt and tell them I will bill them for it. But in no other way will I assist them in their investigation, Not my job. No box, no invoice, nothing. It is their burden to prove me in violation. I know what I shoot is legal. Not my problem that they can't identify in the field. All they get is my license info and the projectile since the game laws walk all over the 4th A. with a "seizure" of the projectile without due process.


As for the "approved list" show me any specifical muzzleloader-approved ammo.
https://wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certified
See "RotoMetals" where if you buy their Bismuth or Pewter and cast your own, and carry a "receipt" you are good.
But there are many who do not cast their boolets or ball. I do, I cast for my 50. But how many shooters in Kalifornia are going to go through the expense and learning curve to cast? That leaves many here in Kalifornia at a disadvantage.

I hope you do not hunt in California . Roto Metal products notwithstand receipts is not the arbiter as to what is legal t0 use, only approved by California is legal to use for hunting.

 

[Zonie]

Before Zonie shows up, from The Rules: "9: We do not discuss copper and/or jacketed, plastic/polymer tipped bullets, sabots, power belts, or other 'plastic-wrapped' bullets. Smoothbores using plastic wads and steel shot are an exception to this rule. "

wm

I'm still mulling this around. At the moment, I am allowing some limited talk about these bullets if the talk is being made by someone who wants to hunt in the State of California.

I know I'm going to receive some complaints about allowing these and probably even more complaints about showing favoritism towards a few of our members but enforcing the rules against others.
All I can say is, it's unfair to deny California hunters the right to find some sort of ammunition that their stupid state will allow them to use.

Let the gripes begin.

I am editing this to add, I will NOT allow discussions of modern In-Line guns that can use the projectiles mentioned above. In-Line guns are not to be discussed on the forum.

 

[Crane Senior]

I'm still mulling this around. At the moment, I am allowing some limited talk about these bullets if the talk is being made by someone who wants to hunt in the State of California.

I know I'm going to receive some complaints about allowing these and probably even more complaints about showing favoritism towards a few of our members but enforcing the rules against others.
All I can say is, it's unfair to deny California hunters the right to find some sort of ammunition that their stupid state will allow them to use.

Let the gripes begin.

I am editing this to add, I will NOT allow discussions of modern In-Line guns that can use the projectiles mentioned above. In-Line guns are not to be discussed on the forum.

OK, now that Zoni has weighed in here is a little more information that will flesh out my former post. I have shot the ITX balls and they will work. In your original post you stated you’re shooting a traditional flint rifle, the alternative I discussed may not be appropriate for your rifle. I have started looking at the Thor bullets Best Muzzleloader Bullets | Thor™ Bullets - Official Website. They are only made for .50 cal rifles. They are not belted, nor are they a sabot. However, they will mushroom (petal) like a Barnes bullet which is what they are based on and approved by the state of CA.

Frankly they act like a Minnie ball where the skirt expands to engage the lands and I don’t know if that will work in a slower twist barrel built for a PRB. I called the company and talked to them about using a traditional muzzle loader (I would use in my 1:48 Hawken) and they were a little skeptical because if the bullet became stuck in the barrel it would be difficult to get out without taking the breech plug out. I guess he’d never heard of how you get a dry ball out by putting powder in the chamber through the powder channel. Regardless these are only made in .50 cal and you have to buy a pack of 4 bullets of different sizes to see which works best for your rifle. I’m really tempted to try them as an alternative to the ITX ball.

 

[Woody Morgan]

I'm uncomfortable with their sizing instructions. I think I'd rather use a dial caliper and size that way rather than chance getting one of those things stuck. Comments?

wm

 

[Crane Senior]

I'm uncomfortable with their sizing instructions. I think I'd rather use a dial caliper and size that way rather than chance getting one of those things stuck. Comments?

wm

I like it, works for me that’s why God invented precision tools.

 

[Woody Morgan]

Him and Laroy Starrett with a courtesy nod to Galileo.

wm

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Reading these posts with interest and trepidation. We this side of the pond are heading towards "Kalif" within a "possible 5 years". Voluntary at the moment except over wet lands ( mandatory over any wet lands) but becoming more serious in Europe.. Moving more towards Steel in shot guns. Most new unmentionables already with many New Proved for Steel and Copper in rifles. OLD DOG..

 

[RunningBear]

Rotometal sells a Bismuth/tin sub thats almost the same weight as lead but $15 a pound,I live in Libafornia and you have three options Ignore them,shoot a copper sabot or cast a sub.Now Its cheaper to buy Bismuth and tin on ebay bulk 60/40 ratio and cast a legal round.I am going that route this spring.

 

[RunningBear]

I'm not even necessarily looking for round ball. Just something that I can legally use to hunt with in CA

Some people also melt pewter,its lighter.

 

[RunningBear]

The calif . dept of wildlife has a list of approved projectilels, no others may be used.
When you are hunting you must if asked show and prove that your load is legal or suffer the consequences.

Buzz

Rotometals has a label of no toxic to show fish and game.

 

[Crane Senior]

Reading these posts with interest and trepidation. We this side of the pond are heading towards "Kalif" within a "possible 5 years". Voluntary at the moment except over wet lands ( mandatory over any wet lands) but becoming more serious in Europe.. Moving more towards Steel in shot guns. Most new unmentionables already with many New Proved for Steel and Copper in rifles. OLD DOG..

The move to lead substitutes is not just a California issue. In the Western states I think only California is currently requiring copper or non-lead bullets. However, there is a movement among other states to “use” non-lead ammunition. So I would suggest that this is a trend that will expand over time. So don’t be surprised if this crops up in your neck of the woods on both side of the Atlantic.

 

[Crane Senior]

Rotometal sells a Bismuth/tin sub thats almost the same weight as lead but $15 a pound,I live in Libafornia and you have three options Ignore them,shoot a copper sabot or cast a sub.Now Its cheaper to buy Bismuth and tin on ebay bulk 60/40 ratio and cast a legal round.I am going that route this spring.

How does a bismuth ball perform or react when it hits an animal like a deer? Does it deform similar to lead or just stay intact in it’s original form?

 

[Blitz]

From the CA fish and Foul website:
"How will wildlife officers check for compliance?
All ammunition in a hunter’s possession may be inspected by wildlife officers. In some cases, if a wildlife officer suspects a hunter is in possession of lead ammunition and cannot prove otherwise in the field, he or she may seize a cartridge or bullet for further analysis. Hunters are encouraged to assist in confirming compliance by retaining and carrying in the field ammunition boxes or other packaging."


Funny how they say "Hunters are encouraged to assist in confirming compliance by retaining and carrying in the field ammunition boxes or other packaging"
Well, under the 5th A, I'll let them "seize" a projectile and I get a receipt and tell them I will bill them for it. But in no other way will I assist them in their investigation, Not my job. No box, no invoice, nothing. It is their burden to prove me in violation. I know what I shoot is legal. Not my problem that they can't identify in the field. All they get is my license info and the projectile since the game laws walk all over the 4th A. with a "seizure" of the projectile without due process.


As for the "approved list" show me any specifical muzzleloader-approved ammo.
https://wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certified
See "RotoMetals" where if you buy their Bismuth or Pewter and cast your own, and carry a "receipt" you are good.
But there are many who do not cast their boolets or ball. I do, I cast for my 50. But how many shooters in Kalifornia are going to go through the expense and learning curve to cast? That leaves many here in Kalifornia at a disadvantage.

The list of approved projectiles for muzzle loaders is available. It is incumbent upon the hunter to acquire such to comply with the law.
As has been said many times , ignorance of the law is not an excuse

 

[Crane Senior]

The list of approved projectiles for muzzle loaders is available. It is incumbent upon the hunter to acquire such to comply with the law.
As has been said many times , ignorance of the law is not an excuse

It’s not that hard to go to the list and find your ammo unmentionable or muzzleloader, it’s pretty extensive. Is it intrusive, yep.

 

[Zonie]

Here's a link to RotoMetals site where they list material that has been approved by the state of california.

https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=152531&inline
I suppose you could buy some of it and cast your own balls. It would be smart to keep copies of the sales slip and carry it with you in case some california Game and Fish warden wanted to see what your muzzleloader was loaded with.

Even then, if he wanted to he could give you a hard time asking you to prove the roundballs you had cast were made from that material. If you were willing to press it, you could pull the ball and tell him to go analyze it after showing him the bill of sale for the alloy.

If he did, and the analysis proved you were in the right, I don't think they could arrest or fine you but that's just a guess.

 

[sgtsquid]

Here's a second vote for RotoMetal's Bismuth/Tin alloy. Pure Bismuth is soft but very brittle. Tap pure with a hammer and it will shatter, add tin and it smushes.

I did not know that. It's a good thing I have a stash of scrap pewter to draw on.

 

[Historian]

Bismuth and tin when properly mixed is an outstanding lead substitute. It casts very easily. About the only thing you need to remember is it melts at about 100 degrees less than lead and will expand slightly as it cools. It is great for round balls.

 

[GoodRabbitPilgrim]

Before Zonie shows up, from The Rules: "9: We do not discuss copper and/or jacketed, plastic/polymer tipped bullets, sabots, power belts, or other 'plastic-wrapped' bullets. Smoothbores using plastic wads and steel shot are an exception to this rule. "

wm

I hope you're not someone that ever complains about hunter numbers and hunter recruitment. If it weren't for inlines and sabots I would never have ended up going to traditional. I myself am following the trajectory from centrefire to inline to percussion and likely to flintlock.

I respect the fact that its a traditional ML forum but the way some people jump on others here for even mentioning things like that is...

 

[Woody Morgan]

I hope you're not someone that ever complains about hunter numbers and hunter recruitment. If it weren't for inlines and sabots I would never have ended up going to traditional. I myself am following the trajectory from centrefire to inline to percussion and likely to flintlock.

I respect the fact that its a traditional ML forum but the way some people jump on others here for even mentioning things like that is...

Nope. I'm not. I just appreciate rules on discussion forums having been a lead moderator on a huge discussion forum in another life. I intimately understand what it takes to keep the herd reined in.

Fact is, originally I was going to go with a Traditions NitroFire. After all, I was the RSO that ran the bay they were in at SHOT Industry Day last year and got to look over and shoot the NitroFire before it came out. It's impressive for what it is. I even got to chat at length with the fellow that developed the FireStick. Thing is, when it actually came time to buy a muzzleloader, the writing was on the wall regarding priming, proprietary powder charges and the like and I didn't want to be hamstrung by that so I jumped straight to flintlocks and I'm glad I did. It's SO much more fun because of what I call "toy factor". All the cool stuff that goes with it and I'm just a big kid that enjoys tall learning curves for the challenge. To shoot well with technology from long ago is icing on the cake. So my Deerhunter has a synth stock and Cerakoted barrel that runs my cast REALs. It's still a black powder muzzleloading flintlock and it kicks @$$.

All that to say that a civilized society has rules and that includes online societies. Look where the lack of rules has gotten many cities in this country and that is my point...but I digress from the subject of this thread. You asked.

wm

 

[Woody Morgan]

Bismuth and tin when properly mixed is an outstanding lead substitute. It casts very easily. About the only thing you need to remember is it melts at about 100 degrees less than lead and will expand slightly as it cools. It is great for round balls.

By extension, bismuth/tin would cast nicely in a Lee REAL mold. Hmm. I think we may have something here. And me with 15# of bismuth shot on the bench as we speak.
Then there's the issue of Ca approving the round for use.

wm