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Traditional Hunting seasons

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Darkhorse

45 Cal.
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Messages
772
Reaction score
287
Location
Georgia
This subject deserves its own post, so here goes;
I don't think we can depend on the average fish and game department to return us to true traditional weapons, and I'm talking about sidelock percussion and flintlocks. I've never been interested in underhammers so I don't know anything about them is the reason I have not included them.
At this point the average fish and game department is using primitive weapons seasons as a tool to generate more revenue. They could care less about the weapons used. They also don't care that the original intention of the season has been aborted by the inclusion of inlines. For instance, in New Mexico you can not only use an inline during the ML Elk season but a scope also. And since they regulate the number of tags sold and their lottery is always oversubscribed their agenda is served.
Here in Georgia the DNR graciously granted us a Primitive weapons season. The only difference is that you can't use a scope on your super duper waterproof stainless steel inline. What a farce! We have too many deer (some say) and our gun season lasts nearly 3 months. You could already use a muzzleloader of your choice during the prime rut days. But they gave us a season during the end of October when its sometimes in the 90's with 90 % humidity and charged us extra for it and the uninformed hunters are flocking to buy that one week license. Also the retailers are making a killing selling the latest inlines and pyrodex pellets one week before the season.
I think some states such as Illinois and Iowa could do well by adding a traditional ML hunt during the rut but I know I am prejudiced.
My hats off to any State DNR who changes the laws to permit only traditional weapons, but I see few actually doing so.

No, I don't personally see the answer lying with our state departments. I see the answer on your TV screen and in the magazines.
30 years ago we were influenced by Jeremiah Johnson. Everybody had to have a hawken gun. And if you intended on ML hunting a sidelock was basically your only choice. Since hunting shows on TV were considered in bad taste then the magazines were full of traditional weapons. Today we have the Outdoor channel and others who are not afraid to air hunting shows. Many shooters are strongly influenced by these shows. 99.9% of what they see are inlines. Both in use and advertised. In the past several years I have never, not once, seen a traditional gun advertised. In fact some unsophisticated hunters don't even know you can still buy one.
If you want to see an advertisement for a Chambers lock or kit, a TOTW kit or a Getz barrel, you basically must seek it out. About the only place to find these are in dedicated black powder publications. Unfortunately these are not the places the majority of aspiring ML hunters look for guidance. Mainly these publications reach those who are already in the loop.
I, for one, would like to see a Traditional ML hunting show where the "Pros" and this is a term I use very, very loosely, use only fine flintlock and percussion rifles and shotguns/fowlers. Where you will see a well thought out advertisement for traditional firearms, from companys like, Caywood, Chambers, Rice, L&R, Pecatonica, Dunlap, Colrain... etc. I think their are enough of these to fund a show.
I think this is the place to reach people. I think the game laws will change when the majority of hunters demand them to change. And that won't happen as long as their senses are flooded with the likes of TC Encores and Knight rifles.
I don't think pointing all this out in a ML forum or on the pages of a ML magazine will change anything.... But, its a real good place to start.
 
Well said Darkhorse.

There is a move under way, at this time, to do just what you mentioned. It will be seen as the TMA or Traditional Muzzleloading Association.

Russ
 
I agree with those thoughts, and I want to expound on it. CVA was responsible for getting the masses into black powder years ago with low cost firearms. CVA has dropped most of their traditional firearms in favor of inlines. Since this low cost source is effectively being self-eliminated, a void needs to be filled.

The average hunter that sees muzzleloading as a "season stretcher" and they typically don't want to spend huge money on it as they have their favorite centerfire to play with.

Enter Wal-Mart. Like them or hate them, they are among the lowest cost place for the average joe to buy just about anything. As a hunter, if you look at their guns in a typical Wally world, the muzzleloading guns are often hard to find - the more traditional style guns that is. The inlines are sold in a blister pack with everything that you need to hunt with other than a license, an orange vest and a place to do it. Wally world can provide two of the three remaining too. So, to get into this extra season, the average guy can spend $150 or so and get a fully outfitted inline, or he can ask if they have something traditional (the local store does not have the sidelocks on display, but the inlines are), then they have to figure out what all they need to go with it. To buy a CVA Bobcat (lowest buy in), he would have to know that it exists, ask to see it, and then buy patches, balls, powder, lube, caps, etc. to be able to shoot the darned thing.

Most folks don't have a clue what to buy. That being the case, they will either take the easy way out or go do some research. If they do research, they will find a forum such as this and here they will read that the custom guns are the best shooters - in fact, many folks will disparage the inexpensive starter type sidelocks. If the average guy persists, they will figure out what they need, but to do that, they would have to have a drive to get more traditional. Another thought is that this forum is rather adamant that true black powder is the only powder to use. You can buy Pyrodex and Triple7 at a lot of places, but black powder can be elusive. The closest place for me to buy a pound is about 3 hours drive away. Yes, I know that you can order it, but it would take this lifetime and another to use up the 25lbs, so that is a very UNattractive option.

The low buy in, the prepackaged instant gratification and the more familiar styling of the inline make it easy for the centerfire guy to pick the inline. Personally, I like to be a bit different from the pack, so I like traditional guns. I bought a Bobcat due to it's cost and the allure of trying to hack a piece of lumber into a respectable stock to fit it. I also spent the time to figure out what all to get and finally got a chance to shoot a muzzleloader. (Investarms Hawken that Dad and I built years ago)

As a good example, I told my buddy about the Bobcat as he always had a mild interest in black powder. He went to Walmart and saw the inline. They did not have the sidelock on display where he went. His interest was no piqued by a gun that looked the same as a regular bolt action, but was more of a pain to load. After he shot my Hawken, he got the bug and is looking for a sidelock.

Just my thoughts from the peanut gallery. :redthumb:
 
Illinois has a muzzleloader season. It used to run the weekend after 2nd regular season ( the weekend after Thanksgiving). Now, muzzleloader runs the 2nd weekend of regular season and the next weekend. Also, handgun season is now called late season since , starting this year, all legal weapons , (shotgun, muzzleloaders, single shot muzzleloading pistols, and revolvers) are allowed. Anterless only, in limited counties.
Muzzleloader season does include in-lines, which seems to be the norm, anymore.
 
Iowa has 2 muzzle loader seasons.Early,which is resident only ::is mid october.Pre rut and the bucks are starting to work their scraps.Early last 9 days.
Late season which is available to non residents also runs directly after the second shot gun season.Late december into january.21 days.
What erks me is if i hunt early season i can not have any other firarms permit for any other deer seasons :curse:That would be the price to pay for having first chance at em i would guess.
Would be nice to have a month long season for front stuffers but i doubt it would ever happen.As far as inliners hunting the muzzle loader seasons i say there is room for everybody here.I aint gonna worry what the other guys usen,im keepen my eye on the ball,which would be the game im after. :D
Ive been hunting with muzzle loaders of one type or anuther since the mid 80s and have yet even once to run into anuther muzzle loader huinter during muzzle loaders season early or late,and i hunt private and state land.So it really aint that big of an issue with me.
I would like to see a restriction on scopes.Once some of the people using their inlines realize that their 200 yard gun dosnt have that advantage over a iron sighted traditionl type gun maybe they will take a second look at the more traditonl type guns. :imo:
 
Inlines and scopes are illegal in Oregon. Only traditional, outside ignition rifles (and smoothbores) are allowed.
 
Just a clarification on the Oregon Big Game Regs. Percussion in lines are allowed if the cap is exposed to the elements. Not being an in-line shooter I have no idea which, if any of the current in-lines, meet the criteria. I remember a survey a few years back that F&W sent out to people who had drawn muzzleloader tags, asking if modern inlines should be allowed. Don't know what the numbers were, but with the exception noted for exposed ignition in-lines they still aren't.

From the 2005 regs:
 
Early season in Iowa isn't that bad. My son-in-laws buck, and two of my grandkids. Oh yeah he's the USDA wildlife biologist for the state of Iowa.
Kidsanddeer-size.jpg
 
The only restrictions on amount of permits we have is no more than 2 permits for shotgun seasons and no more than 2 permits for muzzleloader season. And, no more than 2 antlered deer for ALL seasons, bow, shotgun,and muzzleloader, combined. Youth season( in mid-October) and late season (in mid-January)is antlerless only.
 
Never said it was bad,just a shorter season then the late muzzle loader.Its too bad we here could not hunt both muzzle loader seasons in the same year,but we caint.Iowas seasons are a considerble bit longer than sum other states so we really aint got it bad by no means.I like to shotgun hunt also so the late season works out best for me.
So the real question at hand was do we need a traditional muzzle loader season here.No not really,but if one came about i would hunt it if it didnt effect my other hunting intrest ::but my guess is it would :youcrazy:
 
I agree with darkhorse 100% but as you've already stated, it's the money that speaks. It seems that both young and
middle aged hunters today are to busy and to lazy to put
forth the effort to learn to hunt with a primitive weapon.
I grew up in Penna. and it is still one of the few states that has a truly primitive weapon ML season. However, money
talks and now they have an early doe only season lasting 1 week in which you can use bows, flintlocks or in-lines.
Also roundballs were required but this also has changed. I've nothing against in-lines but they don't belong in traditional ML season. Game dept. need to give primitive
ML hunters a season right after archery and then let the
in-lines have a week after that. As much as I'd like to see
this happen, I doubt it ever will. In-lines and the things
that go along with them are big money and big money speaks
here in the good old USA. :m2c:
 
Big money always speaks the loudest, and while the NMLRA was initialy in a position to speak in favor of traditional muzzleloaders and primitive seasons,.... they have also seen wher the "money is", so thet "option" is now gone, never to return.

Hopefully when the TMA gits started, we'll add an influencial "voice" to our "ranks" thet will promote hunt'n with traditional muzzleloaders, rather then git'n rich!!

YMHS
rollingb
 
If more of us wrote to the makers of the hunting shows, asking to see more traditional firearms, that would be a place to start.

I posted such a request on MWTF's "Television Talk" forum, and it go a lot of positive response, and not just from "traditionalists" either.

Yes it's a hard one to swallow when every show you see has some guy with a scoped modern rifle that loads from the muzzle, he shoots a deer with it, and then exclaims: "man I love muzzleloading!"

Indeed, the game laws/rules do need to be changed so that MUZZLE LOADERS have their own season once again, and put the modern rifles that load from the muzzle in with...modern rifle season.

Here in Washington, you have to make a choice when you buy a tag, as to either a ML tag, for each animal, or a modern rifle tag, so there's really no $$$ incentive for the game dept. to include inlines with ML season. If they turned ML season back into a true ML season, the inliners would either go back to using a cartridge rifle, or get a "real" muzzle loader.

Well I really hope the TMA makes it, and in the meantime, people should write and email the hunting shows, game departments, etc. with our concerns.

Rat
 
I agree with RollingB. It's money. That's where it's at. PA has a traditional muzzloading hunting season: flintlock, iron sights, patched roundball. A guy can even dress up in his buckskins and capote. It makes for great hunting (too bad PA has this herd reduction thing going on, but that's another story). I wish other states would follow that example, but I don't know of any others that do.

I would guess that the ideal way to do this is to have a good organization (TMA) that is solid and has clout in all 50 states. That would mean money...and at that point states governing hunting limits and laws could be approached with specific wants.

If the states see a genuine want by the people they ussually take notice-but not always action. If it's a source of money to be made by the state, then they are all for it. States need to see there is actually money to be made in a traditional muzzleloading season.

It would be interesting to get some people with power and high positions invovled with the future TMA...Mel Gibson? Pro gun senators and congressman? Football or other jocks? But would that spoil the flavor of what we are trying to do?

Sorry about playing "Devil's advocate", but just kinda wonderin' out load so to speak.
 
Bill - Don't know what these guys are talkin about but I love that photo.

Regards, sse
 
:imo: Illinois doesn't need a muzzleloader only season as bad as some states. Since you can't hunt with a rifle in Illinois, (can only used a shotgun with a rifled slug or a handgun), the playing field is pretty much even. I dare say I can hit anything with my Mississippi rifle that anyone else can hit with a shotgun or handgun. Personally, I thing that states with rifle seasons are the ones that really need a traditional muzzleloader only season.... :m2c:

BP Newbie
 
Don't know how it is in other parts of Illinois, but in the south, in-lines are the rule. If you walk into a sporting goods or gun store you don't have the option of a sidelock on display. As a result everyone here doesn't necessarily "make the choice" to shoot in-lines, they just buy what's available without having a choice. So everyone around here ends up with an in-line, and when a father tells his son,"Son, you will be able to hunt with a muzzleloader some day", the son will say "what's a muzzleloader?" and the father shows him his in-line, that's his first and most influencial impression of what a muzzleloader is. If there was simply the visual option, or if folks understood they could hunt with the same kind of gun an historic figure did, I think many more people, especially young hunters, would be intrigued by the traditional style. I showed my much younger teenage brother my Lyman GPR the other day, he replied "I like that! That's the neatest gun I've ever seen!" I let my eleven-year-old cousin fire it while I was target shooting, using a light charge so it wouldn't kick like a shotgun. I explained the PRB loading sequence as I was doing it. He was very curious and attentive after hearing of its historic nature. After his first shot, he exclaimed "Hey, I like that!" as if startled by the light recoil.
I'm confident that if we could get to the young-guns first, who aren't set in their ways yet, before the OTHER GUYS did, there's our traditional ML movement. I'd love to see traditional MLs endorsed on TV as an alternative, but we don't need the big centerfire/in-line promotion gurus to endorse them. What better endorsement than history? "This is the gun Daniel Boone or Kit Carson entrusted his life and well-being to in the frontier west" -versus- "this is the gun XXXX uses at the pay-per-hunt deer farm". I can tell you that as soon as funds were sufficient I was going to head to Gander Mountain to bring home my new T/C Omega. Then Bridger, Walker, and Jed Smith talked me out of it.
 
Unfortunately, in the county where I hunt here in Texas, there is no muzzleloader season. I still choose to hunt with a sidelock for the obvious reasons, though. Having said that, I would never be an anti-gunner on either side. I'm pro-gun period. If you want to hunt with a howitzer and if you can do so safely...pull!
 
It can be hard to find a sidelock . When they do have one, they usually have a low price because it can be hard to sell. The owner at the local shop has even called me to give me first choice, since I'm one of the few who prefers side locks. I swap welding for discounts on occasion too. So , he gives me a good price on things. :thumbsup:
 
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