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Touch hole Liner for Pedersoli Bess?

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Chowmif16

40 Cal.
Joined
Apr 5, 2012
Messages
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My Pedersoli Brown Bess has poor ignition.

I've tried small amounts of prime, large amounts of prime, banking it toward the touch hole, banking it away from the touch hole etc etc.

I enlarged the touch hole some time ago, and while it did improve the ignition, it is still very poor. Doesn't always fire, and when it does, it is very slow.

So far, I've settled on using a fairly hefty amount of prime, sometimes 3F instead of 4F. It works better, but it is still very slow ignition when it works.

To answer the inevitable questions:
Real Black Powder. Goex 2F for the main charge, Goex 3F or 4F for the prime.
I have tried vent picking the touch hole as well. Although, I must admit that my vent pick is maybe a bit thick and doesn't go very far into the main charge.

I'm considering installing a White Lightning Touch Hole liner.
Has anyone tried this, or have a better solution for the Bess?

As far as I have heard on this forum, the Pedersoli Bess usually does very well. Maybe I got a lemon?
 
I had the same problem with my Pedersoli Bess. The ignition was pretty slow and on a humid day it was so slow it seemed like it was lit with a cannon fuse. I decided to install a Chambers' White Lightning and I'm glad I did. It now fires incredibly fast and almost 100%. For the last 7 years I've shot blanks for demonstration during Colonial Day at the local elementary school and I've had only 1 misfire in all that time. Went off every time when I used it in woodswalk on a cold day in the Southern VT Primitive Biathlon.

The liner is very easy to install considering you have a pretty good pilot hole already there for you to drill out with the appropriate bit for the tap.
 
Try these first :-thin pick ,flint must be 1"& fairly sharp ,hammer (frizzen) must be dry & free of oil, flint tight and held in leather , 80grns is a minimum charge, flint wedge up or down as long as it strikes between 3/4 and 2/3 up the hammer face (note each flint is different ).
Mine gives very good ignition unless one of the above is wrong :thumbsup:
 
Before you go any further, are you always getting the prime to go off with no lag, and the main charge is a toss-up between fast, slow, and a flash-in-the-pan, OR..., you also get an inconsistent ignition speed at the pan?

So do you get a shower of yellow or white sparks when you look at the lock being snapped in a dark room?

I ask as it's not just a "spark" that is needed, but a spark at the proper temperature or higher, and I've seen Pedersoli Bess frizzens that throw red sparks when they should be yellow, or brighter. A lower temp spark will touch off the powder, but it does give a noticeable lag, and if they are not hot enough and also not numerous, you will get misfires. This may be fixed if the frizzen is rehardened.

It may also add to the problem if the main spring isn't as strong as it should be, OR if the main spring has interference. Sometimes at the Pedersoli plant the lock inspector doesn't check the frizzen spring screw, and it goes too deep into the lock, messing with the action of the main spring. You may want to check that.

If you do get lots of sparks, AND they are the right color then a correctly installed touch hole liner will probably help your situation.

LD
 
I can't speak for the original poster, but in my case it was not a problem of getting a good spark, it was about the frustration of not knowing if the gun would go off after the flash. With a sharp flint the pan would always flash. The ignition of the main charge, however, was wildly inconsistent, no matter if I picked the vent and tried all of the other tricks to get good ignition. When the gun did fire, there was often a big lag, which lead to shots all over the paper and unbroken clays when I brought it along to the trap range. The Bess breech is pretty thick and the vent hole is pretty long, putting a good distance for the spark/heat to travel between the pan and the powder charge. With the liner I can see a few grains of the powder charge right up against the pan.
 
LD,
good question. I get a lot of failures to ignite the pan.
I keep a pretty sharp flint, and it strikes the frizzen in about the right place.

I'll take a look at it today for a all the things mentioned here, sparks, mainspring, etc etc.

I'd love to get this gun shooting well. My Pedersoli Pennsylvania rifle in flintlock has super fast ignition and I love shooting it.

The Bess is a chore to shoot, and has a tremendously hard trigger pull to boot. Makes it not much fun.
 
Have a white lightning touch hole liner on my lyman hawken flintlock and my india made bess. they both go bang right now every time. cant beat a white lightning liner. On the bess as a previous poster said. can see the main charge powder grains poken out of the liner hole, which is very small indeed.
 
I get a lot of failures to ignite the pan.
I keep a pretty sharp flint, and it strikes the frizzen in about the right place.

:thumbsup: Well then fix that problem first. As another poster wrote, he was getting the pan to flash, no problems, but ignition was a beast....so that's obviously a touch hole problem.

Again, check that frizzen spring screw for if it over penetrates into the interior of the lock, it protrudes right into the path of movement for the main spring. That's an easy fix. Then get the frizzen rehardened by a person who knows how to do it right IF the main spring isn't the problem. The YouTube balderdash of folks wrapping frizzens in leather and placing them into a crimped steel can, then dropping that into a fire, is not how it's done. :shocked2:

The Pedersoli bess should be a good shooter and fun, not a cranky B1tȻh at the range or in the field.

LD
 
Britsmoothy said:
Unfortunate. You may have a softish frizzen!
I had to harden one on my pedersoli trade gun!

B.

That was my thought also. My Ped BB always fired reliably. In fact, that was the strong point with the original BBs in war and other military muskets as well. They shot when needed. After many years of use the frizzen on mine wore through and went soft also. That was also about the same time my shoulders went bad and I had to give up shooting it. :( So have not been motivated to reharden the frizzen. I'll betcha rehardening will get it firing just fine. Loads, prime, phase of moon, none seem to matter. The Bess' fires reliably. Won't cut Xs at 100 yards, or maybe even 50 but it will go "bang" when the bad guys are charging.
 
Chowmif16 said:
I'd love to get this gun shooting well. My Pedersoli Pennsylvania rifle in flintlock has super fast ignition and I love shooting it.

The Bess is a chore to shoot, and has a tremendously hard trigger pull to boot. Makes it not much fun.

British Land Pattern (and most military muskets of the 18th and 19th century up through the UnCivil War) had heavier to MUCH trigger pulls than civilian arms. They were designed that way both for reliability/longer life in rougher combat use and because it is not a good thing to have too light of a trigger pull in the stress of combat when adrenaline is pumping.

The good news is you can reduce the trigger pull on a military musket or rifle musket to a much more manageable trigger pull weight. Note: You will NOT get a 2 to 3 pound weight trigger pull as can be had on a civilian lock with set triggers, but a very nice trigger pull weight of 4 to 4 1/2 pounds can be done on most of even the most poorly made lock parts that will last for a good long while. Pedersoli lock parts are not quite as good as many/most original lock parts, but they are better than many other Italian made lock parts.

Gus
 
Thanks to all for the advice. I got pulled away to work and may not have time to look at it for a while, but will eventually post my results.
I have a few things in mind. I will check the mainspring pin to see if it is sticking through the lock plate.
I will also spend some time with the frizzen spring. The lock is eating flints and the frizzen spring may be too stout. I will also look at the angle the flint strikes the frizzen again.
Lastly, I will look at the Sparks again when the other issues are identified and solved. The reason I am not so sure that the frizzen is soft is that it occasionally throws really good sparks. So much so that I once had it fire (in a safe direction) without even a prime in the pan. I had just replaced the flint and was checking for good spark.
I also intend to get a fish scale to check the trigger pull. I don't mind a historically correct trigger pull, but this seems excessive. Way more than my repro 1861 Springfield musket and my original 1873 Trapdoor. It's such a trigger pull that after 10-15 trigger pulls I'm fed up,with it.
If all those things don't work, then it's a touch-hole liner for me!
 
Has anyone asked where the touch hole aligns to the priming pan in your musket? If the touch hole is way down at the bottom of the pan, that will often give very slow ignition. Also, if you fill the priming pan all the way to the top with powder, that will also slow down ignition. Please don't take this as any kind of personal criticism - just some additional thoughts in case you didn't know it.

One thing I found when going over Pedersoli and Jap Besses for fellow reenactors who were having ignition problems, was often they used flints that were too long for what the gun/lock preferred. I found this especially true with Jap Besses. I MUCH prefer a leather wrap around the flint rather than a lead wrap and would try different thicknesses of leather with different lengths of flints to see what each musket preferred. Then I cut a few leather flint wraps in the thickness the gun liked and gave them to the reenactor along with the size/length of flint that best fit in his musket. Later on I learned to write the information down on a 3 x 5 card and staple a piece of the leather that worked best to the card for each musket I worked on for the folks in my Unit.

Many of us know how frustrating it is to be in your situation, but it sounds like you have a plan for correction and that is good. I would suggest you do it in this order:

1. Get the lock sparking well, no matter what has to be done to get it that way.

2. Then if you still have ignition problems, it would be time to either drill out the vent hole or install a liner.

3. AFTER you get those things done, then you can either work on the trigger pull or have someone else do it for you.

FWIW, here are trigger pull weights I've recorded over many years of working on original and reproduction Military Muskets and Rifled Muskets, etc. These trigger pull weights were taken from using modern NRA and military trigger pull weights.

Original Guns:
1. M1822/30 - 40 Springfield and Contract Flintlock Muskets .... 11 to 14 pounds.
2. M1855/61/63 Rifled Muskets 10 to 12 pounds (Note: Trapdoors go the same as most of the interior lock parts interchange and only the sear is slightly different on the Trapdoor.)
3. British Enfield Rifle Muskets of the different models and lengths. 9 to 11 pounds.
4. Smith Carbines. 16 to 20 pounds and one went up to 28 pounds.
5. Sharps Rifles and Carbines. 8 to 10 pounds.


Reproductions of the above guns might occasionally go 1 pound lighter, but often they were in the ranges noted above or even heavier. I don't think I have ever recorded the trigger pull weight on an original Brown Bess, but the repro's go in the same range as the M1822/30 - 40 Flintlock Muskets.

Just to give you some idea of those trigger pull weights mean, I hope I will be forgiven to list some modern military arms for a comparison.

1. M1903/A3 Rifle. 3 to 4 1/2 pounds
2. M1 and M14 Rifles. 4 1/2 to 7 1/2 pounds, though National Match versions of these Rifles are set up right at 4 3/4 pounds.
3. M16A1/A2 Rifles. 5 to 9 1/2 pounds though many trigger pulls on the latter go between 10 and 14 pounds. NM Rifles are set up at around 4 3/4 pounds as well.


So if you plan on live firing your Brown Bess Musket a lot and do or have a trigger job done, a reduction to a trigger pull weight around 4 to 4 1/2 pounds will feel like a dream come true.

Gus
 
Gus,
Good points, thank you.
A few answers to your questions:
The touch hole is correctly positioned, center and not too high or low.
I have knowingly resorted to too much prime and the slow ignition that entails because that is the only way I could seem to get it to go off somewhat reliably.
Your point on the flint size is well taken. I will have to look at that when I get back in town. I do use leather rather than lead for the flint wrap.
Cheers,
Norm
 
I've made a bit of progress, but there is still work to do.

The frizzen spring screw is not interfering with the mainspring, nor are any other screws interfering at any point.

The touch hole is not quite at the perfect point. It is ever so slightly forward of the center of the pan. The centerline of the pan looks to be within the diameter of the hole though. To my eyes, the hole is also slightly low. The top of the hole lines up about perfect with the top of the pan. It is a deep pan, however.

I had another look at the flint to frizzen geometry. I had been using flints that were a bit thick around the back third of the flint. It had seemed to like them bevel down, but that was causing some poor geometry.
I tried a much thinner flint, and it strikes the frizzen at just the right spot, but still at too steep an angle. 75-80 degrees would be my guess. I will see if I can find shorter flints in my shooting box, or order some. That would help with the angle quite a bit.

The good news is, I am getting good yellow sparks in a dark room.
I snapped the lock about 10 times with just a small prime of 4Fg, no charge in the barrel.
I got fast ignition on the prime 9 times, and one failure to ignite the prime. This is a great improvement.

Couldn't get out to the range today, but I did load one blank charge of 50gr 3F with a thin overpowder card (the type you use for over shot) just to make sure the powder was banked up against the breechplug.

Shot it in the back yard (I live more in the country than in the city). There was a definite and noticeable delay in the ignition of the main charge. Swish..Boom. I do have neighbors, so don't want to shoot blanks too much. Shot the cannon in the front yard several times back in July...

I don't have a fish scale yet, so I slowly added lead ingots into a bucket hanging on a string from the trigger. Finally got the hammer to fall after 16.5 pounds of lead.

So there is still work to do. I'll take it to the range and see what happens, with more than just one blank charge.

What's the best way to lighten the trigger pull? I seem to remember that the answer is stoning the mainspring, slowly and methodically. Would that be on the top, or bottom? The top of the mainspring on this lock is very short. The bottom is quite long.

Thanks again,
Chowmi
 
Chowmif16 said:
Shot it in the back yard (I live more in the country than in the city). There was a definite and noticeable delay in the ignition of the main charge. Swish..Boom. ...

Are you still filling the priming pan all the way up to the top with powder? If so, that is going to continue to give you slow ignition time.

Chowmif16 said:
I don't have a fish scale yet, so I slowly added lead ingots into a bucket hanging on a string from the trigger. Finally got the hammer to fall after 16.5 pounds of lead.

That's an innovative way to measure trigger pull weight.


Chowmif16 said:
What's the best way to lighten the trigger pull? I seem to remember that the answer is stoning the mainspring, slowly and methodically. Would that be on the top, or bottom? The top of the mainspring on this lock is very short. The bottom is quite long.

Thanks again,
Chowmi

Others may feel differently, but IMO the LAST thing you want to do is alter the main spring and I was taught to not do it at all. The reason is with a reduction in main spring force, you get a slower lock time and less force that causes the flint to strike the frizzen. I never altered the mainsprings on large Military Locks I worked on, whether flint or percussion and it is not needed or necessary to get a good trigger pull weight.

OK, will work on a post to offer some suggestions and will get back with you on it.

Gus
 
Part I

To begin with, allow me to say I did “trigger jobs” (reduced the trigger pull weight AND altered the “feel” of the trigger break) on quite a few original and reproduction Military Percussion locks at NSSA Championships before I did a trigger job on my first Pedersoli Brown Bess. It finally dawned on me that though the shape of some of the internal parts of the locks were slightly different and many of the percussion locks had stirrups on the main springs, the actual lock work involved was the same on large Flint Locks that did not have a fly in the tumbler and no set triggers. (Yes, that was a real DUH moment for me in the early 1980’s. Grin.) Keeping this in mind, don’t be surprised when I add a link to a percussion lock further down these posts. I don’t know how to make drawings, copy/import them and post them; so I hope you will understand. Also, this is not going to be a super extensive course on lock tuning, but rather things I think folks with some mechanical experience can do themselves.

I am going to assume you know how to properly disassemble the lock. If you don’t, then that is the first thing you must learn. (Again, I am not trying to be critical and it is just that I don’t know what you know and what you don’t know.) Here is a link to show you how, if you need it. OH, you DON’T have to take the frizzen, spring and screw off the lock to work on the trigger pull.
http://www.blackpowder411.com/builder/tips-tools-with-fred-stutzenberger-part-12/

Before you do anything else, the first thing is to inspect the inside of the lock plate. I always have the lock plate facing me when I work on them and my descriptions will be from that viewpoint with a right hand lock, as is on your Pedersoli. That means the pan will be towards the left side as you look at the inside of the lock plate. You want to see if the outer edges of the tumbler or the tail of the sear is dragging on the lock plate. If so, there should be noticeable worn areas on the plate. I’ve actually seen quite a few reproduction locks where these parts have dug into the lock plate. This sort of rubbing wear is going to play heck with the parts operating smoothly and the feel of the trigger pull.

Late 18th century fine quality locks and mid 19th century military locks had a small shelf/ring around the tumbler shaft and on the sear, where they fit up to the lock plate, so the majority of the surface area of these parts would not drag and dig into the lock plate. These rings are known as bearing rings, or bosses and other names. In figure 2. of the below link, it is called a bearing ring. In figure 3., you can see the bearing ring that fits against the plate just above the polished shaft and arrows. Tiny little thing, isn’t it? These bearing rings were a remarkable improvement in making lock parts. HOWEVER, these bearing rings were not common on 18th century military locks, so your reproduction lock parts may or may not have these bearing rings. http://www.blackpowder411.com/builder/tips-tools-with-fred-stutzenberger-part-13/

Since many/most 18th century military locks did not have these bearing rings on the tumbler and sear; some makers of reproductions of these locks did not realize that original Lock Filers filed the outer edges of these parts to clear the lock plate ”“ this or poor quality control will cause these parts to bear/wear heavily on the lockplate and eventually to dig into the lock plate.

IF these parts are showing heavy rubbing/wear on your lock plate, PLEASE understand I am not suggesting you have the surfaces reworked so there are small bearing rings. What you will need to do is wrap some 240 grit or 320 grit Emory Cloth (sandpaper for metal) around a flat file and and file/sand the outer edges of these parts until they clear the lock plate. Use a permanent black magic marker on the side of the parts that face the lock plate to check your progress. Just ENSURE you don’t file/sand right up to the shaft on the tumbler or the area close to the hole in the sear!!! You don’t need to leave a turned bearing ring, but you do need to leave the metal alone there so it can bear against the lock plate. You really only need to file/sand the area of the part/s that are digging into the plate.

Now, it may be the tumbler and sear are not digging into your lock plate and if so, that’s great!! I just have seen too many reproduction military locks where these parts did dig into the lock plate, that I wanted to mention this first. Please note I did not mention filing or grinding into the lock plate to clear such rubbing and you should not do that. On some locks where these parts really dug into the lock plate, I have used a Medium India Stone to smooth off the burr/s left behind though.

OK, will continue in Part II.

Gus
 
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Artificer,
thank you for the replies, I am looking forward to part two!

To answer your questions, I was not filling the pan.
I have one of those very small brass priming flasks that has a spout on a spring. It dispenses a small amount of 4F equal to the nozzle on it. I.E, it's designed for priming the pan and delivering a small measured amount. I used that this time.

I am familiar with assembling and disassembling locks, and have the tools to do it. I can't say I have a lot of experience with it, but I am currently building a TOTW percussion kit and have done a fair amount of work cleaning up and polishing the lock for that kit. I have disassembled other rock locks.

Thanks again for taking the time to help out.

Cheers,
Chowmi
 
Part II

Trigger pull weight is a function of these primary things:
1. Mainspring strength.
2. Angle of the Full Cock Notch on the Tumbler.
3. Angle of the Sear Face and agreement with the Full Cock notch on the Tumbler.
4. Sear Engagement and in the case of a Military Lock, much of that is in the depth of the full cock notch.
5. Sear Spring strength.
6. Position of Trigger.
7. Improper drag or friction due to improperly shaped or fitted parts.

I already noted I do not recommend reducing the mainspring; because it has to work on such large parts in a military lock, it increases lock time and may/will have a negative effect on the sparking of the lock. For many Novices, Items 3, 6 and 7 are beyond their technical abilities and/or are too difficult to do without serious instruction.

I do believe one should inspect Angle of the Full Cock Notch on the Tumbler, both to see “what is going on” and in case the angle is so bad ”“ to get the lock to someone more knowledgeable to correct it. I am somewhat concerned about using the following link for examples of this and other things, because I am not in agreement with some of the information ”“ yet there is a lot of good information in the link. So with this caution in mind, please scroll down to Figure 2 under “MODIFICATIONS. Step 1. Modify the full cock notch to an angle that increases the trigger pull.” http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml

Figure 2 shows the correct angle for a Full Cock Notch, for optimal performance. The angle is square and perpendicular to the Tumbler Shaft. If this is what it looks like on your Tumbler, that is great, but usually not the case. “line A” shows the angle of the Notch going forward and this is not acceptable because either the Sear will not remain in the Full Cock Notch (NOT Safe) or will easily slip off and thus make WAY too light of a Trigger Pull. What you probably will see in your lock is more like “line B” in the illustration, where the angle is such that the bottom of the full cock notch angles backward at least slightly. From many of the original 18th and early 19th century Military Flint Locks I have seen, I personally believe they designed a LITTLE bit of backward angle as a safety feature for the wear of the parts there, during the working life of the Lock. NOTE: Any backward angle as in “line B” is going to INCREASE the weight of the trigger pull. The more angle goes backward, the more trigger pull weight, because you are actually cocking the Tumbler and thus the Cock/Hammer as you pull the trigger.

It is a pretty safe bet that the angle of the notch in your tumbler is already angling backward by your description of the Trigger Pull Weight, as it now stands. For many people, it is NOT a good idea to try reshaping the Full Cock Notch, though. It is WAY too easy to cut through the surface hardness and then you have to re-harden and anneal the Tumbler OR it is too easy to not modify the notch correctly and then other problems will occur. I would suggest you leave the Full Cock Notch alone for now, as long as the angle is going backwards. I DO NOT suggest modifying the Full Cock Angle backwards more, as the author of the link recommends, because then you are going to cut through the surface hardening and will have to re-harden and anneal the tumbler in Pedersoli and most Italian Locks.

A very important thing to do to reduce the trigger pull weight in such a Military Lock is to reduce the Sear Engagement and in the case of a Military Lock, that means reduce the depth of the full cock notch. This means modifying the Tumbler so the nose of the Sear will not go as high up into the Tumbler Notch, when the parts are installed.

What appears to be the most straightforward way to do that is to file/grind down the Full Cock and Half Cock Notches ”“ as described and shown in “Option 2A) File or machine down the tumbler to the shape shown in Figure 3.” of the above listed link. This is the first way I was taught to do it, BUT I had mentors right there as I was working on the lock. Even so, it is WAY too easy to cut too much of either or both Notches or cut them wrong and then ruin the Tumbler. Further, Pedersoli and other Italian made gun lock parts are normally not “through hardened” like the Original Lock Parts were done for the Civil War. So you wind up cutting through the surface hardening and then really should reharden and temper the Tumbler. There are also a host of other problems when doing it this way. So I DO NOT recommend this for most people, unless they have a Mentor to show/train them. (FWIW, it used to drive me CRAZY working trigger pulls on Smith Carbines using this method.)

I really wish I remembered the name of the tall slender fellow who worked with Nick at “The Gator Den” on Sutler’s Row for many years at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships to give him full credit. Since we were right next door, we often went back and forth to each other’s places and I purchased a LOT of Smith Parts and other parts there over the years. Anyway, this exceedingly kind tall slender gentleman first showed me about soldering on a brass shim to the Tumbler to reduce trigger pull weight on a Smith Carbine in the very early 80’s. Then another extremely well known Smith Carbine “Smith” told me how he did it. He used common Lead Free Solder and tinned the brass shim with solder, then cleaned and fluxed the tumbler and soldered the brass shim on with a good size soldering gun.

In the link shown above and in “Option 2B) Solder or use an adhesive to attach a thin piece of brass to the tumbler as shown in Figure 5.” ”“ the author mentions that soft solder is too soft and can fall off. Well, that is true and especially if the shim is not properly soldered. When I asked many folks who had correctly used soft solders if the shims fell off, only a small percentage said it had happened. Taking into account that even a small percentage might fail, I chose to solder on shims with Brownell’s Hi-Force 44 Solder. Since it flows at 475 F, it can be used without messing up the tempering of the full cock notch. The author of the linked article also mentioned a fairly new adhesive to try instead of solder and that is “Loctite Black Max.” Since I have never used that, I can’t recommend it, but I am thinking about trying it out to see how it compares to the Brownell’s Solder.

Ok, there is more to write, but I’ve been at this for some time today, so will have to close for now and come back later with Part III.

Gus
 
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