Bill,
There's one thing that an F15 Strike Eagle and an F4U Corsair have in commone...they're both airplanes. The one thing that your open-sighted flinter and my scoped in-line have in common - they're both muzzleloaders.
And, you are a little off base about the establishment of the "primitive seasons"...90-percent of the seasons in this country were establsihed as "muzzleloader seasons".
Now...do you think a game department is going to establish a separate season for those who hunt with a traditional bow, and one for those who prefer compounds...one season for those who shoot a 20-gauge with a slug, antoher for the 12-bore shooter...one for the lever-action "thutty-thutty" shooter, one for the long-range 7mm Rem. Mag. shooters...one for the flintlockin' round baller, one for the in-line saboted bullet shooter?
I don't think so, they're going to establish seasons and regulations around what the majority of muzzleloading shooters want to shoot and hunt with. And it is not the old-fashioned flintlock and percussion rifles loaded with a patched ball.
I appreciate...respect...and admire your commitment to hunting with a flintlock. I wasn't born with a modern in-line in my hands. From 1964 throug 1985, I hunted with traditionally styled rifles and took close to 100 white-tails and probably another 30 other big game animals (elk, mule deer, pronghorn, etc.) with the rifles and loads...including quite a few with the old round ball.
I've now taken close to 300 whitetails with modern in-line muzleloaders and equally modern loads. And believe me, if you are right about any one thing in your e-mail, it's that there is no comparison in their performance. The in-line rifles...hot loads of a black powder substitute...and well-designed saboted bullets easily out perform the old round ball...by a long shot.
Ideally, regulations need to be open enough to permit the muzzleloading shooter/hunter to choose the style of muzzleloader and load they want to use. Now, it has been the "traditional" side that has caused all the rift...maintaining that "Holier Than Thou" attitude that the special muzzlelaoding seasons are only for those who hunt with a traditional muzzleloading design.
Hogwash! Modern minded muzzlelaoding hunters are not out there trying to relive history, they're out there to take game as cleanly and humanely as possible. And if the traditional crowd wants to continue with their attack on modern in-line rifles and continue to keep some kind of stranglehold on the effectiveness of the rifles and loads by lobbying for regulations that
limit the use of certain types of bullets, sighting systems, ignition systems or powders, then we are going to start fighting back. And where the old style rifles fall short, despite your romantic ties to the past, is in the effectiveness department.
KILLING ENERGY IS KILLING ENERGY! You either have it or you don't. And when a rifle and load generates more than what's needed, all the better. When a rifle and load are, AT VERY BEST, only marginal, the door is wide open to wound loss.
Lets face it Bill, if a game department established that a rifle and load HAD TO maintain a minimum of 500 ft. lbs. of energy at 100 yards to be legal for hunting any big game...the rifle and load you shoot would not make the cut. And, in my book, 500 ft. lbs. is not adequate for consistently taking even deer sized game.
You mention that the early muzzleloader seasons were "fought for". Hey, I was part of the crowd that pushed for a muzzleloader season in several states back in the 1960s and '70s. There wasn't any fight, it was just a matter of letting the game departments know that we wanted a muzzleloader season...and when they heard from enough of us...they established those seasons. That's how all hunting seasons are established. The game departments listen to what hunters want, then figure out if there is a way to fit in into their overall management plan.
Face it, muzzleloading has changed. And today the modern-minded muzzleloading shooter represents 85+ percent of all muzzleloading shooters and hunters. And it is their wants and needs around which muzzleloader regulations will be written as we go into the future. If I were a die-hard traditional shooter who truly loves to shoot and hunt with an old-fashioned muzzleloader design from the past, especially with a patched round ball, I wouldn't go around creating flack. If push came to shove, today's modern in-line rifle shooters could very likely convince game departmetns that such rifles and loads do not maintain enough energy at any distance to harvest big game cleanly.
Bill, today's modern muzzleloader shooter and hunter has, quite honestly, grown tired of the traditional rhetoric that the seasons belong to them.
Toby Bridges,
HIGH PERFORMANCE
MUZZLELOADING
--- Bill Cutbush wrote:
Hello...read your article and want you to know that I respect, and defend, your right to say the things you said about using modern, high power, scope sighted, long range inline muzzleloaders in what were clearly established as "primitive weapons" seasons.
And I'll expect that you respect my right to disagree and offer a counterpoint...that indeed, the modern high tech inlines with all their high performance features should not be allowed to participate in the primitive weapons seasons...they are no more of what was intended by the term "muzzleloader" than an F15 Strike Eagle is a WWII fighter plane.
Decades ago the primitive weapons seasons were fought for and established by muzzleloading ennthusiasts dedicated to promoting and maintaining the traditional muzzleloading challenges of our ancestors, using technology typical of the early American muzzleloading era...not modern, synthetic stocked, stainless steel, Leopold scoped, high performance rifles which burn powder pellets and use sabot/pistol bullet shooting rifles that happen to load from the front.
The attached photo of a nice 10 pointer with a .58cal Flintlock and patched round ball is what real muzzleloading is all about. To accept the challenge and make the commitment in time to really learn how to use older technology so it's 100% reliable, and then taking the time to really learn how to hunt, getting close, etc. is what real muzzleloader hunting is all about.
It was never designed and intended for modern scoped rifles and components that are practically equivalent to high power centerfire rifle range & performance...and anyone who claims or advocates that the modern inlines are no different, no better than, and offer no advantage over the typical muzzleloader from our early American uzzleloading era are being 100% disingenuous.
I've taken over 60 bucks and a couple dozen does with traditional muzzleloaders...16 bucks and 6 does in the last four years alone with that model Flintlock, all less than 70 yards, one shot kills with a simple Hornady lead round ball...so please be objective and learn about traditional muzzleloader hunting and don't continue to put down that form of hunting as though it's inefficient, etc...it's as efficient today as it was for the hundreds of years it was used to survive and settle our American continent.
Thanks, Bill
_________________
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
TMA Charter Member #22
There's one thing that an F15 Strike Eagle and an F4U Corsair have in commone...they're both airplanes. The one thing that your open-sighted flinter and my scoped in-line have in common - they're both muzzleloaders.
And, you are a little off base about the establishment of the "primitive seasons"...90-percent of the seasons in this country were establsihed as "muzzleloader seasons".
Now...do you think a game department is going to establish a separate season for those who hunt with a traditional bow, and one for those who prefer compounds...one season for those who shoot a 20-gauge with a slug, antoher for the 12-bore shooter...one for the lever-action "thutty-thutty" shooter, one for the long-range 7mm Rem. Mag. shooters...one for the flintlockin' round baller, one for the in-line saboted bullet shooter?
I don't think so, they're going to establish seasons and regulations around what the majority of muzzleloading shooters want to shoot and hunt with. And it is not the old-fashioned flintlock and percussion rifles loaded with a patched ball.
I appreciate...respect...and admire your commitment to hunting with a flintlock. I wasn't born with a modern in-line in my hands. From 1964 throug 1985, I hunted with traditionally styled rifles and took close to 100 white-tails and probably another 30 other big game animals (elk, mule deer, pronghorn, etc.) with the rifles and loads...including quite a few with the old round ball.
I've now taken close to 300 whitetails with modern in-line muzleloaders and equally modern loads. And believe me, if you are right about any one thing in your e-mail, it's that there is no comparison in their performance. The in-line rifles...hot loads of a black powder substitute...and well-designed saboted bullets easily out perform the old round ball...by a long shot.
Ideally, regulations need to be open enough to permit the muzzleloading shooter/hunter to choose the style of muzzleloader and load they want to use. Now, it has been the "traditional" side that has caused all the rift...maintaining that "Holier Than Thou" attitude that the special muzzlelaoding seasons are only for those who hunt with a traditional muzzleloading design.
Hogwash! Modern minded muzzlelaoding hunters are not out there trying to relive history, they're out there to take game as cleanly and humanely as possible. And if the traditional crowd wants to continue with their attack on modern in-line rifles and continue to keep some kind of stranglehold on the effectiveness of the rifles and loads by lobbying for regulations that
limit the use of certain types of bullets, sighting systems, ignition systems or powders, then we are going to start fighting back. And where the old style rifles fall short, despite your romantic ties to the past, is in the effectiveness department.
KILLING ENERGY IS KILLING ENERGY! You either have it or you don't. And when a rifle and load generates more than what's needed, all the better. When a rifle and load are, AT VERY BEST, only marginal, the door is wide open to wound loss.
Lets face it Bill, if a game department established that a rifle and load HAD TO maintain a minimum of 500 ft. lbs. of energy at 100 yards to be legal for hunting any big game...the rifle and load you shoot would not make the cut. And, in my book, 500 ft. lbs. is not adequate for consistently taking even deer sized game.
You mention that the early muzzleloader seasons were "fought for". Hey, I was part of the crowd that pushed for a muzzleloader season in several states back in the 1960s and '70s. There wasn't any fight, it was just a matter of letting the game departments know that we wanted a muzzleloader season...and when they heard from enough of us...they established those seasons. That's how all hunting seasons are established. The game departments listen to what hunters want, then figure out if there is a way to fit in into their overall management plan.
Face it, muzzleloading has changed. And today the modern-minded muzzleloading shooter represents 85+ percent of all muzzleloading shooters and hunters. And it is their wants and needs around which muzzleloader regulations will be written as we go into the future. If I were a die-hard traditional shooter who truly loves to shoot and hunt with an old-fashioned muzzleloader design from the past, especially with a patched round ball, I wouldn't go around creating flack. If push came to shove, today's modern in-line rifle shooters could very likely convince game departmetns that such rifles and loads do not maintain enough energy at any distance to harvest big game cleanly.
Bill, today's modern muzzleloader shooter and hunter has, quite honestly, grown tired of the traditional rhetoric that the seasons belong to them.
Toby Bridges,
HIGH PERFORMANCE
MUZZLELOADING
--- Bill Cutbush wrote:
Hello...read your article and want you to know that I respect, and defend, your right to say the things you said about using modern, high power, scope sighted, long range inline muzzleloaders in what were clearly established as "primitive weapons" seasons.
And I'll expect that you respect my right to disagree and offer a counterpoint...that indeed, the modern high tech inlines with all their high performance features should not be allowed to participate in the primitive weapons seasons...they are no more of what was intended by the term "muzzleloader" than an F15 Strike Eagle is a WWII fighter plane.
Decades ago the primitive weapons seasons were fought for and established by muzzleloading ennthusiasts dedicated to promoting and maintaining the traditional muzzleloading challenges of our ancestors, using technology typical of the early American muzzleloading era...not modern, synthetic stocked, stainless steel, Leopold scoped, high performance rifles which burn powder pellets and use sabot/pistol bullet shooting rifles that happen to load from the front.
The attached photo of a nice 10 pointer with a .58cal Flintlock and patched round ball is what real muzzleloading is all about. To accept the challenge and make the commitment in time to really learn how to use older technology so it's 100% reliable, and then taking the time to really learn how to hunt, getting close, etc. is what real muzzleloader hunting is all about.
It was never designed and intended for modern scoped rifles and components that are practically equivalent to high power centerfire rifle range & performance...and anyone who claims or advocates that the modern inlines are no different, no better than, and offer no advantage over the typical muzzleloader from our early American uzzleloading era are being 100% disingenuous.
I've taken over 60 bucks and a couple dozen does with traditional muzzleloaders...16 bucks and 6 does in the last four years alone with that model Flintlock, all less than 70 yards, one shot kills with a simple Hornady lead round ball...so please be objective and learn about traditional muzzleloader hunting and don't continue to put down that form of hunting as though it's inefficient, etc...it's as efficient today as it was for the hundreds of years it was used to survive and settle our American continent.
Thanks, Bill
_________________
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
TMA Charter Member #22
