The talent, do you have it? Find out?

[54ball]

Not to sound conceded but I do have it. Fletho said something on here a number of years ago that I think of often. Basically he said to build a gun well, one has to have....talent.

At the time I knew where he was coming from but I disagreed. I thought anyone can build a rifle and do it well if they pay attention and gain the skill. Well, that's easy for me to say because it does comes natural to me. I may not have all the skill set yet but I do have the ability.

I can draw, paint, build structures out of my head,build cars....Again not to sound conceded but I can do it all. Now doing it well and sticking with it.....that's something else entirely.

The jest of this subject is this....

Everyone wants to encourage and be positive. In building I learned quickly why a custom rifle costs so much. I can't imagine how hard it would be for someone without...basic talent.

I'm not musical. I tried to learn a tune on a tin whistle. It was too much....a struggle and that's OK. I tried it ......not gonna happen.

So if you are thinking about building.....do you have the talent? Be honest with yourself.

This is something to find out before a thousand dollars or more is spent on a parts set.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I can probably build a serviceable muzzleloader from parts and even make some minor items as I've done in the past to repair some firearms. I don't have the talent to move much beyond that let alone to approach the level of skill many here possess.

Almost anyone can learn to play a simple tune on a piano. Fewer are able to play with skill and fewer still can play well enough to be a pro and a mighty few attain concert level skills. We all have gifts. Very few of us art top level artists.

 

[Elnathan]

Most of what passes for "talent" is interest + practice + temperament. If you have enough of an interest to keep at a subject for a long time, and you keep at it, and you have a temperament that corresponds with the job requirements, then you will end up pretty good at it. Now, I'll allow that there often seems to be a bit of inborn spark that allows the true genius to rise above the workaday craftsman, but it is easy to overemphasize. I'm not sure someone can know if they have "talent" unless they spend quite a number of hours learning the basic skills, unless there is some obvious disability preventing them.

That is true of any discipline, IMAO.

54ball,
Skills build on themselves, too. If you can paint and draw well, you already have learned to view shapes and proportions in a way that most people haven't, and that is an asset when learning to build rifles. I do too - not because I'm so special, but because my mother is an artist and she taught me the basics of drawing early on. She is very good at what she does and maybe that is due to some internal talent, but I'm inclined to think that 10,000+ hours of practice over 25+ years (while raising six kids!) had something to do with it too...

My problem isn't that I lack talent, it is that I'm lazy.

 

[Chowmif16]

This post makes me angry. I will attempt to restrain myself.

It is essentially advice to give up before you start if you are at all worried about the process or your abilities.
Wrong answer. We do not succeed if we do not try. We can learn. We may not end up as Mozart, but we can learn and do well enough to satisfy ourselves and maybe some others.

If I were to translate this same advice given by 54ball back to him, I would ask "can you spell? If not, don't write."
Conceited, not conceded.
Gist not jest.

I hope I have not gone overboard here.

Cheers,
Chowmi

 

[Cruzatte]

So if you are thinking about building.....do you have the talent? Be honest with yourself.

This is something to find out before a thousand dollars or more is spent on a parts set.

OK....I'll buy that. After all, I'm the guy who can fiddle at your daughter's wedding, and have everyone out of their seats and on the dance floor, I can write you a song, and play a melody on just about any stringed instrument.

Can I build a rifle (or rather a French fusil)? I don't know. How would I know if I never tried?

On the other hand, I also believe that talent can be developed, too. I've seen it happen to a fellow who was in the beginning a gawdawful singer and banjo player. A few years later, he was actually pretty decent. He was, apparently very dedicated and persistent. It paid off.

So, I have faith that I could eventually build a respectable historical interpretation of an early 18th century French fusil.

 

[necchi]

This post makes me angry. I will attempt to restrain myself.

Yeah, maybe,,
But I think he's responding to the many folks that come here with very,very basic questions.
This section of the forum contains such a huge data base of information available at the fingertips of all members from some of the top builders in the country,,
,,it's wealth of information that can't or couldn't be compiled in several volumes of book or printed matter.
It's free,, it's available,, it's all right here and there are YEARS of posts to look at.

It a Simple Matter To Search,,,

But folks don't want to do that,, they want to simply ask,,
Can I do this?
Well 54ball is putting that same basic question back,
Can you?
Some can, some can't,,, spending hours posting "how too" has already been done,, and the answers to those kind of commonly repeated questions have been asked so many times,, many of those previously mentioned top builders,, won't post here anymore.

I'm sorry, Wanna learn? Then study,, ask a pointed question when you need to,,
Coming here to ask, Can I re-finish wood?
Well, try youtube.

 

[Vaino]

To start....everyone is NOT created equal....if this were not true, anyone could be an "Einstein" by being interested, practicing and having the temperament. But, in the real world, this won't happen.

Tim Adlam who does my engraving is a very talented artist and in 10 mins can draw an extremely intricate, artistic carving or engraving design which takes me approx. 8 hrs, many erasers and in the end, my design although pleasing to the eye, isn't as artistic as his. Using the 3 requirements you stated, I'll never equal the innate artistic talent of Tim.

So....a realistic assessment of one's gun building talents and skills should realized after 2-3 builds, but shouldn't depress or prevent further builds.... after all, everyone can't be a Rembrandt or an Einstein or even come close unless he/she is born w/ an innate talent.

Was approached by 2 builders and asked if I would lend advice on their builds.....which I did. To begin...I have to admire both builders for their perseverance after 2 and 3 builds, but was astounded that they were still doing it. During the 3rd and fourth builds of these 2 builders, a steady stream of mistakes and problems arose that could have been prevented w/ some common sense and forethought. Are they still building? I don't know.

Can a beginner assemble a GPR factory kit, a Kibler LR, build one of the parts sets from TOW or other suppliers and then move onto a build from a blank and then somewhere in between, embellish the metal and stocks? Yes, but along the way, there will be "drop outs" who will never be heard from.

Just about all of the participants in the "The Gunbuilder's Bench" probably have varying degrees of what it takes to build MLers, but what about the silent builder who after a problematic gunbuilding experience just hangs it up?

Building MLers isn't "rocket science" but does require some degree of talent and other attributes and not everyone can succeed at it.....Sorry for the looooong post.....Fred

 

[Eric Krewson]

Back in the early 80s we had a guy at work who drew the satirical caricature cartoons of the upper level managers, much to their dismay. These cartoons would mysteriously pop up in elevators, on stairwells and such.

Admiring the cartoonist's art work one day I told him I sure wished I had his talent. He got mad at me and stated "I DON'T HAVE TALENT, I have just done the same thing over and over until I got it right".

This brief statement opened the door for me to "make" stuff, I had previously thought one had to have talent to be creative. Being a duck hunter I started with duck decoys, my first were awful, my last looked like they could fly away, next came bows, again my first were terrible but my latest have won national championships and finally flintlocks which have also gotten better over time.

I will never be top tier but I make nice stuff. The top tier guys actually have artistic talent, my hats off to them.

For guys like me, I have found perseverance is the key to success.

I teach bow making and find the perseverance trait missing from all but a few of my students. Consequently very few of my students ever complete a bow, they quit too easily.

 

[Vaino]

I still say he's talented contrary to what he said. Some couldn't even begin to do that , even after many attempts. Perseverance is req'd for gaining many skills, but nothing replaces innate talent.......you're born w/ it

In the 5th grade sat next to a boy that many thought was mentally deficient, but who could really draw....he was a serious artist and never took a lesson....Fred

 

[Col. Batguano]

I can't agree, admire, respect, and listen to Fred more than I already have, but I'll try. He is a very generous person here, and many many of us have profited from his experience and sage advice over the years. Is he right all the time? No.
Is he perfect? No. But he DOES have experience, wisdom, and an artistic expression in his work that is uniquely his, and heartfelt things to say that are worth bearing in mind as we create our own unique styles and works as we progress in our building careers. Thank you for saying what you did.

I will add to this by saying that all of us started at square 1. We all make or made mistakes. If you never try something you don't make mistakes. Some of them are correctable, and some really aren't. The key to "talent" is the rate at which you learn from them, or, more succinctly--visualize them ahead of time and avoid making them in the future. That's part of the reason I still keep my earlier builds around. I'm not particularly proud of them now, but I sure was then. They're a visual reminder of how I've been learning along the way, and also reminders about mistakes NOT to make with a current build.

Personally, I think that the difference between a LR being merely a tool, and an artistic creation is the builder's ability to convey emotion in the beholder of the piece.

 

[jerrywh]

This is a subject that is partially a matter of opinion. I personally do not believe talent is strictly a God given thing. I belive talent is learned but a person must be born with the desire and the basic neccessities to learn and function.
Among these are curiosity, desire, love of beauty,good nerves , hands and eyes. It helps to be competative.
Child guidance and developement has much to do with it. A person who grows up playng coputor games is not likely to build a cutom car. Kids who grew up making toys usually develope into craftsman. ETC. Some people say I'm talented. If so I learned it. I could not engrave or make guns when I was born. My first functioning gun was a laughing stock. I have a gun I made about over 40 years ago just to look at. It keeps me somewhat humble. There is always somebody better than you and he learned it. The best in the world don't watch TV much. They learn. Some people say they could never engrave or build a rifle. Most of them never even tried. They just assume they can't.

 

[Vaino]

Not to step on your toes Jerry and I and many others say that you possess a rare talent judging from your exquisite work, but I disagree from where your innate talent comes from. It is in your "makeup" at conception {genes} and although you've enhanced it through many yrs of study and perseverance, for many of us, perseverance and study wouldn't produce an artist of your caliber....no matter how much we tried. Why? Because we don't possess your equivalent innate talent.

We've discussed this similar topic a number of times and I think you're just showing humility....which in fact I admire. Also. I think you want to lend credence to your yrs of study and perseverance. You're proud of the fact that a whole lot of hard work paid off....but w/o a "big" innate talent, you wouldn't have achieved an ability to produce "world class" work no matter how many hrs of study and how much perseverance you had.

If I "bought" your argument, any person on earth could be a Rembrandt or an Einstein through study and perseverance. Not true because of reality. Some are born more endowed w/ various talents than others and this is also a fact judging from many demographics.

Also...thanks for sharing your experiences about your "dizziness" and your solution......Fred

 

[rich pierce]

Most coaches and teachers and all talent scouts know folks differ in innate ability. It's nature and nurture. Even temperament (perseverance bordering on stubbornness) is a product of nature and nurture.

Given innate talent of above average level, a math student, race car driver, or gunbuilder could end up with below average achievement or very high level achievement. Someone with average level innate talent is unlikely to rise as high.

When I was deciding whether or not to get my PhD, wondering if I had enough brains, a mentor told me i could get there relying largely on my persistence and insistence, layered on no more than above average brain power. She was right.

It's said that a good many Nobel Prize winners have IQs in the 120's which is not exceptional or genius level. But none in the average range. Then of course there are aplenty in the estimated 135-145 range.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

there are those who have a luck of the gene pool edge. But that it all it is, an edge. There are many kinds of "edge" mechanical, artistic, Imagination, ability to conceptualize, memory, patience, even the ability to see things through to a final finish. To an extent, persistence and patience can over come the lack of a natural edge. Some people need to plan every step in minute detail and others can just roll along. I realize that I have "edges" in some areas and great deficiencies in others. And the one thing that makes up for almost every thing is the motivation to learn. I have no interest in learning fly fishing or to tie flies. I have no interest in cabinet making. In fact I know I am woefully inadequate at joinery and making square cuts. But taking a chunk of firewood and turning it into a bowl, chair leg, candle stick, or what ever reveals itself as I work, is extremely satisfying. Just seeing a skew throw translucent shavings that are yards long is an amazing thing.

 

[M. De Land]

Talent is never very impressive when judged by self. The best at any skill never think they have arrived and can always find something wrong with what others would consider near perfection.
I have run into several people that thought they had talent in differing areas but truth be known they had deceived themselves into delusion.
Always compare yourself against a known master of some art skill and usually you spend your life trying to approximate their level but never really achieving it as a whole.
Thing to do is be inspired by some one who is the real deal and then try to improve on each attempt to match their skill.

 

[M. De Land]

I should add also, don't be afraid to let your own expression be revealed while using some one else's gift as inspiration.

 

[jerrywh]

I certainly appreciate all the compliment Flehto but I often see other gun makers who are just as good as I and some who are better in my opinion. I also know that there are a number of engravers who are much better that I am. You are as good a gun maker as there is around in my opinion. There are a lot more now than there were a few years ago. I see guys now who are fantastic who I never even heard of before. As for born talent I think one main gift is persistence. Some people just won't give up until they have it right. It is sort of a do or die state of mind. That is what the navy looks for in the seals. Men who just won't quit.
When it's all said and done it's just plain fun to do something nice. One thing in common seems to be most of the real good ones are up in years with a few exceptions. People say a certain man or women is extremely talented but they been doing it for 30 to 60 years. That isn't born. The yall have the certain things in common. Persistance, determination and drive. I know some men who are so good it doesn't seem human.

 

[Artificer]

Jerry,

I am in awe of work like yours, Dave Person and Fred. You all have an artistic talent/eye that I don't have. For example, the only thing I got a grade of "D" in in Elementary School was cursive hand writing and I got nothing but D's no matter how hard I tried.

Then we had to take "Art" in 7th grade. I not only got a D on the blended color chart, but also joke that I failed on drawing stick figures. The only thing that saved the day for me was I got 100's on all the written quiz's and got A's on all the written tests. I seem to remember that Art Teacher telling me, she had never had to give an overall Grade of "B" to anyone who had no art talent at all. :rotf:

I very much agree about persistence and I would take that further - that if one does not have talent, but does have the stubbornness of a Missouri Mule AND the desire to do good work, that can get one by very well.

I will never forget the OJT (Apprentice) who took the longest time by far to learn to do something and was terribly hard on himself, BUT he had the heart not to stop until he got it right. He was always apologizing and I told him I did not care it took him longer, because he had that heart. I got into some huge arguments with the Shop Chief who wanted to drop the guy out of the program. Fortunately the Shop Officer listened and actually looked at the work he did and went with my call.

It turned out this guy became one of the best Pistolsmiths we ever had AND he won the Pistolsmith of the Year Award about 12 years later, after he retired.

Gus

 

[Vaino]

Perhaps I'm mistaken on what follows and would like to be corrected if I am.

Motivation and perseverence are 2 character traits which will enable a person to achieve greater knowledge in various levels of education, will also enable a person to advance in the workplace and will be necessary if one is to fully develop and achieve one's artistic innate talent.

I think when one considers artistic innate talent, one must realize that w/o it and even w/ a lot of motivation and perseverance, achieving acceptable levels of artistry isn't likely.

Artistic achievement to me is an exception that requires innate talent and motivation and perseverance of course help to develop it, but it must be present in the individual's genes.

Perhaps because I am in such awe of artistic achievements such as Jerry's, I place too much weight on innate talent......but I don't think so.

As an aside.....how many members have viewed Jerry's world class gun work?.....Fred

 

[Vaino]

I mentioned a 5th grade classmate that some thought was mentally deficient and who was a serious artist w/o taking an art lesson...well, it turned out that he wasn't mentally deficient.....he just "marched to a different drummer". We became friends outside of school and chummed around for a few years. So I'll ask a question....what was responsible for Bobby's artistry that was achieved w/o taking even one art lesson?......Fred